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For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

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Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#161

Post by yeukhon »

p4wnc6 wrote: post #129
frcknfrckn wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the company looks like garbage though, why are you applying?

If the candidates look like garbage, why are you screening them? You can't always tell. You begin part of the process, then the company says how great their Agile teams are, or how "collaborative" their open-plan surveillance workspace is, or they invite you to do a HackerRank test, and only now do you know the company is shit and you pass. It's the same problem you face with the 60-80% unqualified applicants. I get…

Most people don't get to choose who to interview. Your manager or your recruiter does not have enough data to eliminate the 60% unfit. But the first 40% are already eliminated because those candidates did not pass even the first phone interview with a recruiter (think Google hiring process).

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#162

Post by mooreds »

lostcolony wrote: post #130
deftnerd wrote: post #89

The current state of the hiring process in tech companies has really affected me. I'm, by nature, a very shy person who doesn't deal with rejection very well. Because of this, I tend to apply at jobs where my hiring is a slam-dunk because it's so routine and easily within my skill-set. It results in jobs that aren't particularly fulfilling but gives me plenty of time to work on technology I'm interested in my spare t…

I actually found 'toughening up' the wrong mental strategy, but rather "not giving a damn". You're in a position where you have a job. Anything you interview for you -don't need-. You may want, but you don't need. You also sound very comfortable in a specific role. That's a great place to start from, because if someone rejects you...what are they rejecting? How does it effect you? You know you're good, at least in ce…

> I actually found 'toughening up' the wrong mental strategy, but rather "not giving a damn".

I believe this is called having a great BATNA. You always want to have a plan B, and preferably a plan C. That's why you should always be networking (and, if you are a company or hiring manager, always be recruiting: http://avc.com/2012/07/mba-mondays-guest-post-from-chad-dick... ).

I find that contracting is a great way to practice "not giving a damn" because you can cycle through 3-5 contracts (of various sizes) in the time that 1 w2 job would take. That means you get all kind of experience with different colleagues and processes and tech sets.

Also, the act of repeatedly putting yourself out there will thicken your skin and let you realize that sometimes it isn't about you, but rather is about the company/client.

That's to say nothing of the benefits of learning to run your own business and marketing and budgeting. (If that floats your boat.)

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#163

Post by mooreds »

soham wrote: post #116
deftnerd wrote: post #89

The current state of the hiring process in tech companies has really affected me. I'm, by nature, a very shy person who doesn't deal with rejection very well. Because of this, I tend to apply at jobs where my hiring is a slam-dunk because it's so routine and easily within my skill-set. It results in jobs that aren't particularly fulfilling but gives me plenty of time to work on technology I'm interested in my spare t…

There is only one way to toughen up: Practice. Be it interviews or sports. Be it negotiations or cooking. Practice and practice perfectly. 1. Take mock interviews from experienced engineers Go one topic at a time e.g. Recursion or Trees or DP or Multithreading etc. Before you walk into the interview, practice well. Do at least 20 problems on that topic, if not more. 2. Do practice interviews at companies you don't wa…

Wise words: "You are not going there to get a job, you are going there to present what you do... then walk away."

I think if more people took this attitude of employment being an arrangement of mutual benefit that both sides are engaged in, the world would be a better place.

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#164

Post by leoc »

Why not show the questions to the candidates say 45 or 60 minutes in advance of the whiteboard session itself, and let them take notes on pencil and paper in an examination-hall like environment during that interval? Even without Internet access it would still be a lot closer to a realistic test of skill at normal software development activities than a set of surprise questions. If you pipeline the candidates it shouldn't add too much time. Please excuse my ignorance if this is something which is already being done, or has already been tried and given up on.

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#166

Post by Alex3917 »

jacquesm wrote: post #84
sokoloff wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you got your second sentence a little twisted around. I've never seen an "A" player command a 5x multiple on a median or "B" player. I think "A" players are the best bargain in the software world...

> I think "A" players are the best bargain in the world... They are, but try explaining to your average PHB who doesn't even begin to understand the complexities of the 'simple' piece of software they intend to write that Charles here can do the job in 3 months and will cost 50K and that the five guys over there in the corner will take the job for 30K and will take a month longer (or so they think). Then, after 30K b…

Two issues:

1) The market has imperfect information. The expensive developer could be great or terrible, but the same is true for the inexpensive developer. Even if there is theoretically some way to tell the difference, most employers don't have the skills to do so.

2) Bad management is at least as likely to kill a project than bad developers, so even a developer who is 10x in theory will on average deliver much less than 10x in practice.

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#167

Post by bpchaps »

berdario wrote: post #68
dominotw wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Getting 38 job interviews is very much a sign of the times. I've noticed that many employers have copied google and have stated to interview with as many people as possible. Lots of them take pride in their acceptance ratio, some even advertising that on their careers page. Def a sign of times but might not in a way that you are suggesting. Getting an interview is not all that hard these days, you can get an intervi…

> Getting an interview is not all that hard these days, you can get an interview with google/facebook ect pretty easily. Maybe... I got contacted by 2 google recruiters in 2 separate instances. I replied to them, but I never heard back. I would've probably failed at the whiteboard, but I never even got a chance to attempt the interview.

Google -scheduled an interview -forgot it -scheduled another -forgot that one, too -after a few annoyed emails, they scheduled another. -they remembered the next one, but the guy seemed stupidly disinterested. -never heard back.

What the fuck.

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#168

Post by bcook »

mooreds wrote: post #163
soham wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is only one way to toughen up: Practice. Be it interviews or sports. Be it negotiations or cooking. Practice and practice perfectly. 1. Take mock interviews from experienced engineers Go one topic at a time e.g. Recursion or Trees or DP or Multithreading etc. Before you walk into the interview, practice well. Do at least 20 problems on that topic, if not more. 2. Do practice interviews at companies you don't wa…

Wise words: "You are not going there to get a job, you are going there to present what you do... then walk away." I think if more people took this attitude of employment being an arrangement of mutual benefit that both sides are engaged in, the world would be a better place.

I think this could be applied to many encounters; dating seems to be the most obvious.

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#169

Post by bcook »

lostcolony wrote: post #130
deftnerd wrote: post #89

The current state of the hiring process in tech companies has really affected me. I'm, by nature, a very shy person who doesn't deal with rejection very well. Because of this, I tend to apply at jobs where my hiring is a slam-dunk because it's so routine and easily within my skill-set. It results in jobs that aren't particularly fulfilling but gives me plenty of time to work on technology I'm interested in my spare t…

I actually found 'toughening up' the wrong mental strategy, but rather "not giving a damn". You're in a position where you have a job. Anything you interview for you -don't need-. You may want, but you don't need. You also sound very comfortable in a specific role. That's a great place to start from, because if someone rejects you...what are they rejecting? How does it effect you? You know you're good, at least in ce…

I think the "not giving a damn" statement belies that you do actually care.

Like someone saying "I don't care" implies... yes, you do care, otherwise you would not state such a thing.

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#170

Post by crispyambulance »

logfromblammo wrote: post #41
kafkaesq wrote: post #5

So, how did you get to where you are today? I’ve always been passionate about coding, starting from my early days at Olympiad teams in high school and ACM teams in college. Anyone who's made it onto an Olympiad team[1] of any significant geographical scale, in any category, shouldn't have to deal with this whiteboard nonsense. Maybe a few lightweight-to-medium rounds to verify that they are what they say they are. Bu…

If only that were true. I'm a U.S. national event champion in Div. C Science Olympiad (Road Scholar), and I not only have to deal with whiteboard nonsense all the time, but also, the spouse never really believes that I know how to get anywhere from anywhere else. (Sure, argue with Siri/Google, rather than allowing that I might possibly know which direction north is.) Credentials are only as good as the trust other pe…

> I've had plenty of them remark "you are the only candidate that has answered that question correctly" and then never speak to me again.

Stop right there :-)

I think that's where you need to do some deep introspection.

There's A LOT more to a job than technical aptitude. It appears that you're excelling in one aspect of the evaluation but failing in another. There's a reason WHY they're not following up. Find out what it is.

Consider doing mock interviews with seasoned folks that you trust who are willing to give you honest feedback. You might discover a lot and improve your interview game.

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