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For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

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Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#121

Post by gingerrr »

frcknfrckn wrote: post #85
p4wnc6 wrote: post #44

Any time a company asks me to do a HackerRank test, I immediately reject them. It's just not possible to have a quality engineering team and to also believe the results of HackerRank tests correspond to on-the-job success. HackerRank is an attempt to commoditize software labor (literally reducing evaluation of your labor fitness to standardized examples). It communicates immediately that creativity is valued less tha…

Ugh. Using a coding test shouldn't be a red flag. They are an incredibly useful tool for weeding out the applicants who, quite frankly, don't know their ass from their keyboard. I've done hiring at several companies over the years, and I can honestly say that the signal-to-noise ratio for programmers tends to be very low. Even eliminating the obviously unqualified resumes leaves us with dozens of supposedly 'qualifie…

Using a coding test as the initial barrier to even a phone screen is what I have a severe problem with.

I think coding tests absolutely have their place - after a 30m high-level skillcheck over the phone, let's ask for a brief 30-45m timed code challenge to rule out the applicants who were effective enough bullshitters to clear the phone screen.

But I too have seen this trend that GP calls out re: "auditions" to even make it into the actual audition process, and FWIW it has not hurt me one whit to spend the last few years refusing to complete a code challenge as a prerequisite to anything but an in-person technical interview.

The only way it would hurt you is if the company in question is one you know you want to work for - and I'd consider an up-front code challenge for a few big names out there - but in most cases I simply write back and let the recruiter know my policy.

It's not like they're going to stop sending you leads, if you're a good candidate.

edit: grammar

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#122

Post by cbhl »

kenrikm wrote: post #118
EliRivers wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apply for jobs you've no intention of taking if offered. Use them as practice. Use them to toughen up. Knowing in advance that it doesn't matter, and that you'll never see or hear from the people involved ever again, and that the final outcome - that nothing will change and you're risking nothing - might be liberating enough that you can do it.

This is actually kind of a bad thing to do, since you're intentionally wasting other people's time.

Companies interview multiple candidates looking for the best one, and they'll solicit applications from candidates that will never make it past a phone screen.

Why wouldn't you do the same with companies?

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#123

Post by dwc »

deftnerd wrote: post #89

The current state of the hiring process in tech companies has really affected me. I'm, by nature, a very shy person who doesn't deal with rejection very well. Because of this, I tend to apply at jobs where my hiring is a slam-dunk because it's so routine and easily within my skill-set. It results in jobs that aren't particularly fulfilling but gives me plenty of time to work on technology I'm interested in my spare t…

Instead of toughening up, I'd suggest two things:

* Try to get ahead in your day job. This doesn't necessarily mean making the big bucks. It means being someone who deserves the big bucks. To find better work and more money you'll probably have to leave. Maybe not, but probably.

* Find new jobs through word of mouth, networking, etc. In my experience, this does not equal a slam dunk hire, but it'll get you an interview and they will actually converse with you. They want to find out why you were recommended, and that's a whole different feeling that being "screened".

Potential sources of recommendations and job leads include former coworkers (and bosses!), people you meet at user groups, interest groups, etc.

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#124

Post by frcknfrckn »

p4wnc6 wrote: post #101
frcknfrckn wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ugh. Using a coding test shouldn't be a red flag. They are an incredibly useful tool for weeding out the applicants who, quite frankly, don't know their ass from their keyboard. I've done hiring at several companies over the years, and I can honestly say that the signal-to-noise ratio for programmers tends to be very low. Even eliminating the obviously unqualified resumes leaves us with dozens of supposedly 'qualifie…

The flip side of this is that most companies are "garbage" as you put it, and a lot of them simply do cargo cult imitations of the more popular companies. If a startup is saying they're going to disrupt the online vegan running shoes market and then tells me they have to weed out the "80% garbage applicants" with some parochial trivia about binary search trees that let's be honest none of us has given a shit about si…

If the company looks like garbage though, why are you applying?

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#125

Post by frcknfrckn »

gingerrr wrote: post #121
frcknfrckn wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ugh. Using a coding test shouldn't be a red flag. They are an incredibly useful tool for weeding out the applicants who, quite frankly, don't know their ass from their keyboard. I've done hiring at several companies over the years, and I can honestly say that the signal-to-noise ratio for programmers tends to be very low. Even eliminating the obviously unqualified resumes leaves us with dozens of supposedly 'qualifie…

Using a coding test as the initial barrier to even a phone screen is what I have a severe problem with. I think coding tests absolutely have their place - after a 30m high-level skillcheck over the phone, let's ask for a brief 30-45m timed code challenge to rule out the applicants who were effective enough bullshitters to clear the phone screen. But I too have seen this trend that GP calls out re: "auditions" to even…

But look at it from the company's point of view - why would they invest time in a 30-minute skill check interview for every applicant if they can just as easily run the code challenge up front and eliminate a large proportion of the unsuitable applicants?

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#126

Post by Terr_ »

EliRivers wrote: post #98
deftnerd wrote: post #89

The current state of the hiring process in tech companies has really affected me. I'm, by nature, a very shy person who doesn't deal with rejection very well. Because of this, I tend to apply at jobs where my hiring is a slam-dunk because it's so routine and easily within my skill-set. It results in jobs that aren't particularly fulfilling but gives me plenty of time to work on technology I'm interested in my spare t…

Apply for jobs you've no intention of taking if offered. Use them as practice. Use them to toughen up. Knowing in advance that it doesn't matter, and that you'll never see or hear from the people involved ever again, and that the final outcome - that nothing will change and you're risking nothing - might be liberating enough that you can do it.

> Apply for jobs you've no intention of taking if offered. Use them as practice.

This runs afoul of the same mental-block when it comes to worrying about your self-identity. It's trading the possibility of "Oh man, what if they think I'm incompetent?" for the self-certainty of "Shit, I'm a horrible person who lied to them and deliberately wasted their time."

Anybody already self-assured enough to "be the jerk" probably isn't that worried about "being rejected".

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#127

Post by xvolter »

I've seen articles about technical interviews too many times to count, and while I personally don't believe whiteboarding is a good tool for interviewing and don't use it when I perform interviews, I do believe that any good engineer should be able to whiteboard answers with relative ease. The gripe really is dependent on the specific questions, however if you've worked with a technology stack you should be able to recall the function names, parameter order, and basic pseudo code syntax to write answers to questions. If a developer is dependent on their IDE or Google to do absolutely anything, I wouldn't hire that person. Even developers directly out of college have done enough programming to do the basics, and if a developer can't they should be honest about their abilities and rather than stumble through a wrong or incomplete answer. Often the interviewer will still ask you to try your best, but it's important to be honest about your capabilities.

I've interviewed at dozens of technology companies, many that do whiteboarding, and I've always done well. I've gotten offers significantly more times than I've ever been rejected, this isn't because I interview well, but because the things I claim to know and be an expert at, I know better than the back of my hand. If a software developer has been writing code and working with a set of technologies on a daily basis for years, I'd expect the same of any of them.

From what I've seen of the modern software engineers isn't that they interview poorly, or that whiteboarding is the blocking issue. It's that they're actually poor engineers. Lots of people are taking 8 to 10 week crash courses on programming and think they are near the same level as someone who went to college for four years, even tend to expect the same pay. I actually don't think college is generally useful for software engineers either, but it's about the time spent. The best programmers by far are those who started young and even program personal projects as a hobby, who actually love to write software. I love writing software, getting wrapped up and losing track of time, creating amazing software that solves difficult problems and is a delight to use. I hire developers who are the same.

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#128

Post by thefastlane »

ktRolster wrote: post #73
berdario wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Getting an interview is not all that hard these days, you can get an interview with google/facebook ect pretty easily. Maybe... I got contacted by 2 google recruiters in 2 separate instances. I replied to them, but I never heard back. I would've probably failed at the whiteboard, but I never even got a chance to attempt the interview.

Yeah, that just happened to me this week. I'm sitting here wondering what I said wrong in my reply email. Was I not enthusiastic enough? What was it?

the trend i've seen lately is that internal recruiters are now as flaky as the typical 3rd-party recruiter. everyone is just spraying and praying. (though, personally, my experience with google recruiters has always been amazingly positive.)

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#129

Post by p4wnc6 »

frcknfrckn wrote: post #124
p4wnc6 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The flip side of this is that most companies are "garbage" as you put it, and a lot of them simply do cargo cult imitations of the more popular companies. If a startup is saying they're going to disrupt the online vegan running shoes market and then tells me they have to weed out the "80% garbage applicants" with some parochial trivia about binary search trees that let's be honest none of us has given a shit about si…

If the company looks like garbage though, why are you applying?

If the candidates look like garbage, why are you screening them?

You can't always tell. You begin part of the process, then the company says how great their Agile teams are, or how "collaborative" their open-plan surveillance workspace is, or they invite you to do a HackerRank test, and only now do you know the company is shit and you pass.

It's the same problem you face with the 60-80% unqualified applicants. I get messages from head hunters, direct recruiter emails on Stack Overflow, traditional recruiting firm phone calls, as well as occasional job listings that I locate through a job search.

80% of these jobs are shitty and need to be weeded out, even when they have plausible-seeming job descriptions and acceptable GlassDoor reviews.

Re: For anyone who has been turned down by 38 companies

#130

Post by lostcolony »

deftnerd wrote: post #89

The current state of the hiring process in tech companies has really affected me. I'm, by nature, a very shy person who doesn't deal with rejection very well. Because of this, I tend to apply at jobs where my hiring is a slam-dunk because it's so routine and easily within my skill-set. It results in jobs that aren't particularly fulfilling but gives me plenty of time to work on technology I'm interested in my spare t…

I actually found 'toughening up' the wrong mental strategy, but rather "not giving a damn".

You're in a position where you have a job. Anything you interview for you -don't need-. You may want, but you don't need. You also sound very comfortable in a specific role. That's a great place to start from, because if someone rejects you...what are they rejecting? How does it effect you? You know you're good, at least in certain areas. Either they don't need your knowledge in those areas and aren't convinced you'd be an asset in others (which is fair, and a reflection not on your abilities but your experiences), or their process is broken. Neither is a reflection of you.

I've gotten a lot more comfortable in interviews just recognizing that, that I have successes under my belt, I've already proved I can learn and adapt and get difficult things done. So if in an interview I don't get an offer...that speaks more of their process, or the minutiae of what they're looking for, than it does of my capabilities.

And what's funny is that that devil-may-care attitude, has made me both more willing to speak confidently about what I can do, -and- to more readily admit what I can't. I don't fumble and stutter when asked do I know about (a thing I don't know about), and give some half-truth, I just flat out say "I don't. What is it?" And that has led to better interviews, and more offers, than I ever got when I was a scared junior dev looking for work.

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