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Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

psychologytoday.com

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Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#81

Post by wonderlust »

fucking_tragedy wrote: post #43
pc2g4d wrote: post #19

Amen to this article. As one who myself once believed my depression "came out of nowhere" (but which, in retrospect, was an obvious symptom of my emotionally destructive family and school environment) and who tried for many years to smother those feelings with antidepressants, I feel strongly that this article presents a wiser path. Evolutionarily speaking, it seems likely that depression/anxiety are there for some p…

How are suicidal ideation/attempts and 'successful' suicides explained by this hypothesis?

As I read this, its not a hypothesis, nor is it a theory. Its just a long value statement about how to think about what's going on.

You can accept or ignore this, and it won't change the science at all.

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#82

Post by TeMPOraL »

Domenic_S wrote: post #78
TeMPOraL wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The interesting thing IMO is that CBT is actually about totally ignoring the "underlying reasons" of your problem, and instead it's about literally hacking your mind to deal with the symptoms. Drugs are a hardware solution, CBT is a software solution, and all that searching for problems in your life is mostly attempts at patching up datasets provided by third parties.

Sort of... it's learning to recognize when your brain starts looping and giving you the skills to be able to hit ctrl + c, while at the same time teaching you how to not write loops in the first place. GAD and PTSD and all that spectrum are coping mechanisms, they're just maladaptive. CBT teaches you how to cope productively. (personal opinion incoming), I think a person can get to the point where they need an SSRI a…

I share your personal opinion. I'm actually in the process of that, and I can attest from my experience that it would not be possible for me to benefit from CBT without first getting an SSRI therapy - I was stuck so deep in anxiety loops that even the keyboard interrupt handler was starved for resources. SSRIs reduced my problems to something I'm struggling with - before drugs I was unable to function as a productive member of society at all.

(Ironically, some of my present problems are indeed caused by life conditions - exactly the conditions I inflicted upon myself during the period before I started taking drugs.)

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#83

Post by TenOhms »

rifung wrote: post #24
jonny1090231 wrote: post #14

I have been suffering depression for long time and can tell you right now that this article is as wrong in describing how I feel as one could get it. Regardless of how my need are taken care of and how satisfied I should be with the status quo depression takes it all away from you without you understanding why and how. There are days that I feel like I am the luckiest man in the world, technically speaking, yet I fee…

I don't really understand how any part of what you said refutes the article. > There are days that I feel like I am the luckiest man in the world, technically speaking The reality is that each person's needs are different, and just because you are the luckiest man in the world based off society's values doesn't mean your individual needs are being met. I sympathize with the fact that you have depression but I don't r…

The biggest issue I take with the article is a classic chicken and egg problem. The article takes the stance that your depression is there because of your life choices and some factors that aren't in your control. I'm of the very strong opinion that the exact opposite is true.

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#84

Post by haberman »

tbirdz wrote: post #76
haberman wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That explanation doesn't make sense to me. Your brothers/sisters etc. have similar genes, but they don't have your genes. The theory of evolution is that the most fit genes propagate. So if your brothers/sisters propagate but you don't, then your brothers/sisters genes (along with whatever mutations they might have) are being selected over yours, just as if you had some mutation that made you overall less fit.

The most fit genes propagate, not the most fit individuals. Your siblings have many of the same genes that you have. Say there is a gene A that will result in some individuals not reproducing, but will result in more members of their group reproducing. Now say there is 1 group where the members of the group have gene A, and another group where the members don't have gene A. Over time the group with gene A will reprod…

I guess this works if you separate the idea of "fit for a particular situation/environment" for "fit in general."

Suppose we did not separate these things. In that case, for an entire group to have A, that implies that some ancestor of that entire group had A. But this contradicts the premise that the gene makes people less likely to reproduce.

It works if you accept the idea that genes which are fit in some situations are less fit in others. In that case you could have a person who developed this mutation of feeling suicidal when they feel useless, but it doesn't "activate" because they aren't in a situation where they feel useless. But once a whole group has this gene, then your theory of propagation through siblings/cousins is more plausible.

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#85

Post by Fordrus »

funkysquid wrote: post #2

> Or if you are outside for a long time in the cold with no jacket, upon feeling very cold, you don’t say that you have "a coldness disorder". A better example for anxiety or depression would be standing inside in a warm room, and despite everyone else in the room being comfortable, you are unable to warm up at all. When you complain, you are told that "everyone gets cold sometimes". This article doesn't seem to have…

Let me just take a moment to register monumentally huge agreement with your modification of the the metaphor at hand. The problem here is that huge numbers of other people are living in almost exactly the same circumstances - or ones that are objectively worse - and they register no depression.

And here, by objectively worse, we're talking, risk their lives daily on a shoestring lifestyle that barely keeps them from not having a roof over their heads and rice or beans enough not to starve to death. Do those who risk their lives have something the comparatively wealthy depression cases lack? Are the kinds of pressure the relatively wealthy depression cases experience particularly likely to create this kind of response? What's the difference? What's the root cause?!

If we had actual, good root causes, then we'd be golden, but the problem, the HUGE PROBLEM that the paradigm espoused in the article faces, is that we DON'T have a kind of 'smoking gun' need that is not being fulfilled for people with depression. MANY, MANY people with deep depression really do have fantastic lives compared to those who suffer no depression- and moreover, admonishing people with depression to 'figure out what need is being unfulfilled in your life, and fill it' is highly toxic advice, at least in its way- based on my experience with depressed individuals, if you effectually tell depressed people to figure out what's wrong in their life and fix it- well, it's one way to obliquely encourage suicide.

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#86

Post by haberman »

balfirevic wrote: post #80
haberman wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That explanation doesn't make sense to me. Your brothers/sisters etc. have similar genes, but they don't have your genes. The theory of evolution is that the most fit genes propagate. So if your brothers/sisters propagate but you don't, then your brothers/sisters genes (along with whatever mutations they might have) are being selected over yours, just as if you had some mutation that made you overall less fit.

It's called kin selection and I think it's generally accepted within scientific community to be a real phenomenon. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kin_selection

That addresses my question exactly, thanks!

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#87

Post by d4amnation »

So I have depressive symptoms for quite some time. I've talked to my doctor like 2 years ago about it. He told me that the only way to get a therapy is to seek out a therapist on my own. This is fine, I can understand that. Just like an alcoholic must accept that he has problems and seeks out for help. I am not going to lie, it is a tough thing to do. But as an general scepticist I have the huge problem to find someone to trust. I find it absurd that I have to check the phone book or the internet to find some nice looking person that maybe can help with my mental health. Eventually, a therapy is something that both therapist and patient have to agree about. But I can't really see myself to visit mutliple therapists just to find someone that can work with me.

So if someone lives in germany and can give me a hint to find someone, or anyone else in any way I'd appreciate it.

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#88

Post by nitrogen »

fucking_tragedy wrote: post #72
Kenji wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The agony is so horrible that the depressed deludes himself into thinking that death is the only way out.

If agony is the motivating factor, why are the rates of suicide for people experiencing chronic pain (5%) not as high as the depressed (15%)? If the answer is that they come to the conclusion of suicide because they are deluded by depression, it comes back to the question in the OP: how does the grandparent's hypothesis explain the symptom of suicidal ideation/acts in depression?

Maybe depression hurts worse than pain?

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#89

Post by imgabe »

haberman wrote: post #52
tbirdz wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First let me preface this by saying that I have no training in psychology or related fields, so this comment may be complete bunk. I think that suicide could have some evolutionary advantage in a group. Say there is a member of a group who has become sick, injured, or otherwise incapacitated and is unable to contribute to the group. The group must spend more work to take care of the member than they receive back from…

From a purely mathematical perspective, how would evolution ever select for a trait that causes someone to destroy themselves for the benefit of others? It seems like any characteristic that prevents the individual from reproducing is by definition not selected for. But I could be misunderstanding something. Maybe it could work in the case of people who are already parents. Favoring the group could increase the likel…

Not every trait that exists has to be selected for. It just has to not be selected against enough for it to be completely wiped out. Some people procreate before they commit suicide, even those that don't would have relatives who might have been spared by different circumstances, or a slightly different mix of genes.

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#90

Post by TeMPOraL »

smegel wrote: post #79
TeMPOraL wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have a solution for that already - it's called "divorce". But this is a very bad example overall, because there's insane amount of complexity hiding under the phrase "doesn't love". Love is a very complicated amalgamate of emotions that routinely escapes comprehension of otherwise healthy people. What do you mean she "doesn't love" her husband - did the relationship between them dried out? Did she get bored? Did t…

> We have a solution for that already - it's called "divorce". And we can't extrapolate that to "just change the things in your life that are making you unhappy", because? I understand there are some life circumstances that are difficult to change or rectify. And that sometimes medication might help people cope with difficulties in their life. But let's not pretend that is about mental illness - these people are heal…

> And we can't extrapolate that to "just change the things in your life that are making you unhappy", because?

Oh we can and we do. If you go to the doctor and say, "I'm unhappy because I am doing X", he'll say you should stop doing X. But those clear-cut issues are the type people tend to solve themselves. You don't go to psychiatrist to ask if maybe you need a divorce. You just get a divorce.

Going back to depression - sometimes it's very hard to tell whether something is a healthy response to negative circumstances. The mental pain tends to interfere with your ability to perceive its cause. So it may be a healthy response, or an amplified response, or it may be a good response to wrong signals, or your brain may just be broken. There are special treatments for the last case, but for the former cases getting an entry-level antidepressant is often enough to help you figure out what's going on (with or without guidance of psychologists).

And even in the cases where you have a healthy response to negative circumstances, people who end up taking pills don't take them because they're too lazy to change the circumstances, but because changing circumstances is an impractical option. If it weren't, they'd have already changed them.

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