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Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

psychologytoday.com

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Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#51

Post by themgt »

retbull wrote: post #48
themgt wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the perspective, and ditto. It sounds condescending, and obviously physical brain damage (e.g. CTE) can cause depression completely separately from life circumstances, but I would venture that for a majority of people who say "My life is just fine but I am depressed anyway", their life is not actually fine. It's not even that they are lying, but we humans are very good at hiding truths, even from ourselves…

But drugs are awesome :D Seriously though, compared to being depressed when you can't fix it because you don't have any idea that something is wrong, drugs are fucking amazing. The shitty part is people end up trapped now as the drugs can fuel the negativity which lead to the depression in the first place.

I actually agree drugs are useful for treating mental issues, I just disagree that people need a daily drip-drip-drip of e.g. serotonin or dopamine to function. Drugs can be extremely helpful in treating acute mental issues and helping people "break through" or inoculate themselves against episodes of illness, see e.g. psilocybin, MDMA, ketamine for treatments of e.g. anxiety/depression/PTSD/psychological health in the terminally ill, cluster headaches, etc.

The common thread though is that a single dose of the drug offers long-lasting protection, weeks or months or years. It's not about chemically changing the brain day after day, it's about using neurochemicals to jolt the brain out of a rut. It's about occasionally kickstarting the brain back into normal self-regulation, not using externally supplied chemicals to permanently supplement dysregulation.

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#52

Post by haberman »

tbirdz wrote: post #49
fucking_tragedy wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are suicidal ideation/attempts and 'successful' suicides explained by this hypothesis?

First let me preface this by saying that I have no training in psychology or related fields, so this comment may be complete bunk. I think that suicide could have some evolutionary advantage in a group. Say there is a member of a group who has become sick, injured, or otherwise incapacitated and is unable to contribute to the group. The group must spend more work to take care of the member than they receive back from…

From a purely mathematical perspective, how would evolution ever select for a trait that causes someone to destroy themselves for the benefit of others?

It seems like any characteristic that prevents the individual from reproducing is by definition not selected for. But I could be misunderstanding something.

Maybe it could work in the case of people who are already parents. Favoring the group could increase the likeliness of their children surviving perhaps?

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#53

Post by retbull »

DanBC wrote: post #29
oconnore wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I didn't need any of that, I needed a machine that pushes air into my face at night and another one that pulls a belt below my feet in the morning, but the professionals I visited failed to prescribe these. What sort of therapy is that?

Air in face is APAP for sleep apnea. Belt under the feet is a treadmill for exercise.

The belt one was funny.

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#54

Post by themgt »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #50
themgt wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Opiates improve pain-in-arm symptoms greatly for many patients. That at least says something about opiate levels in patients with pain-in-arm."

And by studying how they work we learn about how pain works. Compare to alternative, "keep smiling and find better friends". Fuck that. Even if it was relevant (it probably isn't), I can't smile or talk to people, because I'm constantly in agony because of my arm. I'll stick to opiates because they let me live.

The point in the analogy though is, the pain is a symptom. Understanding how pain is transmitted through nerves and how to block it is certainly useful in the treatment of broken bones, but far more important is understanding that the pain is caused by the broken bone. The pain itself is not the problem, even if makes sense to ameliorate; focusing on the pain instead of the break can lead you to masking and failing to treat the underlying problem, allowing it to worsen.

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#55

Post by TeMPOraL »

haberman wrote: post #52
tbirdz wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First let me preface this by saying that I have no training in psychology or related fields, so this comment may be complete bunk. I think that suicide could have some evolutionary advantage in a group. Say there is a member of a group who has become sick, injured, or otherwise incapacitated and is unable to contribute to the group. The group must spend more work to take care of the member than they receive back from…

From a purely mathematical perspective, how would evolution ever select for a trait that causes someone to destroy themselves for the benefit of others? It seems like any characteristic that prevents the individual from reproducing is by definition not selected for. But I could be misunderstanding something. Maybe it could work in the case of people who are already parents. Favoring the group could increase the likel…

It's easy to make evolutionary just-so stories and they're usually worthless anyway, but here's my attempt at one: as an animal, if you reach a certain age and are not already a parent, it means you're deficient. It's better for the gene pool if you die without reproducing. If you're a parent and you did all that was needed for the offspring to survive the early development period, you're no longer needed and probably better off dying instead of consuming resources your children need.

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#56

Post by tbirdz »

haberman wrote: post #52
tbirdz wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First let me preface this by saying that I have no training in psychology or related fields, so this comment may be complete bunk. I think that suicide could have some evolutionary advantage in a group. Say there is a member of a group who has become sick, injured, or otherwise incapacitated and is unable to contribute to the group. The group must spend more work to take care of the member than they receive back from…

From a purely mathematical perspective, how would evolution ever select for a trait that causes someone to destroy themselves for the benefit of others? It seems like any characteristic that prevents the individual from reproducing is by definition not selected for. But I could be misunderstanding something. Maybe it could work in the case of people who are already parents. Favoring the group could increase the likel…

The individual would still have other relatives who would pass on the genes, like sisters, brothers, other family members. If the individual's sacrifice helps the group survive, their genes would be passed on in those relatives. Also note that the gene would only be activated under a certain set of circumstances, so individuals could have the "self-sacrifice" gene and pass it to their children, even if they never encountered the set of circumstances that would induce suicidal ideation themselves.

I believe there is similar thinking for genetic passing of traits like homosexuality.

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#57

Post by TeMPOraL »

themgt wrote: post #54
TeMPOraL wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And by studying how they work we learn about how pain works. Compare to alternative, "keep smiling and find better friends". Fuck that. Even if it was relevant (it probably isn't), I can't smile or talk to people, because I'm constantly in agony because of my arm. I'll stick to opiates because they let me live.

The point in the analogy though is, the pain is a symptom. Understanding how pain is transmitted through nerves and how to block it is certainly useful in the treatment of broken bones, but far more important is understanding that the pain is caused by the broken bone. The pain itself is not the problem, even if makes sense to ameliorate; focusing on the pain instead of the break can lead you to masking and failing t…

Yeah, I get the point of the analogy, but I think in reality, the "social" approaches to solving depression are closer to curing broken bones by telling patients to change friends / sleep more / find God. And I say this as a person who had depression and anxiety issues for a long time. Yes, some parts of it are affected by my life conditions, but sadly I can't wish my way out of sudden, random anxiety attacks.

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#58

Post by Domenic_S »

graycat wrote: post #41
DanBC wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And the expert claimed that it is known that psychotherapy, e.g., as suggested in the OP, doesn't work for anxiety or some of its other symptoms, obsessive-compulsive disorder, social phobia, paranoia, That's an interesting bit of advice. English NICE recommends psychotherapy for front line treatment of anxiety. https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/qs53

My info was first hand from the Chief of Psychiatry, Westchester County Hospital, NY, USA. He seemed darned serious, bright, well informed, enormously experienced, and competent.

Perhaps you misunderstood the Chief; CBT is the gold standard for treating anxiety-related disorders. See this meta-analysis: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3263389/

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#60

Post by Domenic_S »

jonny1090231 wrote: post #14

I have been suffering depression for long time and can tell you right now that this article is as wrong in describing how I feel as one could get it. Regardless of how my need are taken care of and how satisfied I should be with the status quo depression takes it all away from you without you understanding why and how. There are days that I feel like I am the luckiest man in the world, technically speaking, yet I fee…

Isn't this precisely what the article is saying though? That upon reflection the sufferer can't see anything environmentally wrong?
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