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Andy Grove’s Warning to Silicon Valley

nytimes.com

201–210 of 266 posts

Re: Andy Grove’s Warning to Silicon Valley

#201
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have astatement A and conclusion C but no B step. Do people spend money without advertising? I would say, yes they do. People have intrinsic wants and needs. Why would I so fulfilling them, because of a lack of extrinsic wants and needs? Edit: also aren't you just trying to optimise to what is measured. GDP goes up, and that's beneficial because? Greenspan says so?

People spend more money with advertising. The velocity of money increases. If you believe it doesn't, then you should probably tell that to the trillion dollar industry. I get that it's not what you want to hear, but that's your problem to deal with, not mine. "Wishing and hoping" that advertising doesn't work, doesn't actually make it so. Just because you don't like something, doesn't mean it doesn't work.

>If you believe it doesn't, then you should probably tell that to the trillion dollar industry.

The advertising industry is profitable because it's an arms race. Companies have to advertise because their competitors already are doing.

If all industries agreed to limit their ad spending, those trillions could become mere billions overnight, and the marginal revenue decreases would be more than offset by the decreased spending. But such coordination is impossible in a competitive economy, because any defector will reap huge rewards.

Re: Andy Grove’s Warning to Silicon Valley

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't buy something, and hold off on spending, then the GDP goes down, as the velocity of money slows down. If 1 dollar is spent 5 times a year, that economy has a higher GDP than when that 1 dollar is spent 4 times a year. Advertising makes sure that money is spent quickly, to increase the GDP by increasing the velocity of money in an economy. If you get rid of advertising, you slow down the economy.

> If you get rid of advertising, you slow down the economy. I still don't understand why a slower economy is a bad thing. Poverty and starvation is definitely a bad thing, climate change is definitely a bad thing, but a slow economy?

There is certainly an argument for the consequences of a breakneck economy of high monetary velocity. It pressures everyone into being paycheck to paycheck, which increases stress and depression. The hyper-utilization of the monetary base can also destabilize the economic system very easily when that velocity shifts even slightly - part of the 2008 downturn might be attributed to such a mechanism, as would the dramatic rebound of the stock market in the interim. Basically, total utilization can drive significant growth, but it also means any downturn can be that much more catastrophic. More relaxed economies in Europe were impacted much less severely than the US.

Re: Andy Grove’s Warning to Silicon Valley

#203
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have astatement A and conclusion C but no B step. Do people spend money without advertising? I would say, yes they do. People have intrinsic wants and needs. Why would I so fulfilling them, because of a lack of extrinsic wants and needs? Edit: also aren't you just trying to optimise to what is measured. GDP goes up, and that's beneficial because? Greenspan says so?

People spend more money with advertising. The velocity of money increases. If you believe it doesn't, then you should probably tell that to the trillion dollar industry. I get that it's not what you want to hear, but that's your problem to deal with, not mine. "Wishing and hoping" that advertising doesn't work, doesn't actually make it so. Just because you don't like something, doesn't mean it doesn't work.

In the absence of advertising very few people are educated enough to more productively use their wealth. Principally, you must also consider that almost no dollars today are hoarded - even if you place them in the "slowest" place you can, your bank, that is still a fractional reserve bank that will loan all that out to drive economics in the same way buying goods would. Very, very few people who are saving are going to just hide cash under their bed if psychologically manipulative advertising was coercing them into buying things they did not want or need. And besides that, most of any money held in reserve would go into investments, which can drive much more social utility than buying unecessary crap.

But in reality that does not actually matter either. Like I said, there is very little fiscal responsibility in people - at least in the US - predominantly a product of culture. The money people would have spent on random useless object advertised on TV 1 would instead be spent on personal want 2. The practical effect of advertising is that it is simply redirecting dollars that would have gone to those with smaller advertising budgets to those with larger budgets. The trillion dollar industry exists as an arms race where increasing product quality or diversifying is less effective - because people are already broke, and net wealth is declining, you cannot compete honestly as effectively in product anymore. If you try that, you simply lose to the guy who had more advertising out there using psychological techniques to manipulate people into buying the inferior product over yours, and that is where the wishing comes in, people wish people were more rational, but we are not, and constant bombardment of advertising only wastes money to let the fattest cats maintain sales margins.

Re: Andy Grove’s Warning to Silicon Valley

#204
Maybe I've been around Silicon Valley too long (born here), but the key paragraph of the whole story really is this --

Mr. Grove acknowledged that it was cheaper and thus more profitable for companies to hire workers and build factories in Asia than in the United States. But in his view, those lower Asian costs masked the high price of offshoring as measured by lost jobs and lost expertise. Silicon Valley misjudged the severity of those losses, he wrote, because of a “misplaced faith in the power of start-ups to create U.S. jobs.”

MBAs and money people look at immediate costs, managers look at engineering costs, lost in the off-shoring debacle is...you actually aren't saving money in the long term.

There are specific exceptions in the case of leveraging specific expertise -- for me, looking for a WinMo optimized two way DH key handshake in assembler, send the code and email Dec 23, receive the results Dec 25, was great. But most outsourcing isn't targeting specifics, it's the generalities and that is a big issue. Costs are masked.

Re: Andy Grove’s Warning to Silicon Valley

#205

> "There was room for improvement, he argued, for what he called “job-centric” economics and politics. In a job-centric system, job creation would be the nation’s No. 1 objective, with the government setting priorities and arraying the forces necessary to achieve the goal, and with businesses operating not only in their immediate profit interest but also in the interests of “employees, and employees yet to be hired.”…

Not sure if those are fair analogies, nor an accurate representation of the choices. I live in a social democratic country and low unemployment has always been the cornerstone of social democratic policy. I associate basic income more with liberal politicians. There are a lot ways in which a job centric approach would affect economic policy which doesn't necessarily mean hole diggers. E.g. in my home country Norway i…

Congrats to the Norwegian people for making better use of their oil money. I read this article about how an Iraqi engineer named Farouk al Kasim helped them get their priorities straight [1] :

> After growing up watching the benefits of Iraqi oil elude the Iraqi people, a young executive insisted that Norway do things differently.

For initial expansion of industry, I always felt that command and control economy works to an extend. Even the early soviet union was an example of rapid modernisation of an agrarian country to an industrialised one [2]. There are also examples of South Korea and how its government helped make them one of the best in the ship building [3].

To kickstart an industry government involvement is good to keep the pace and for the introduction of interlinked systems necessary for production where none had existed earlier, but there is no question the human cost soviet people had to pay and there is no justification to it. To keep people and companies from becoming complacent, the accountability and the skin-in-the—game feeling that capitalism brings is equally good. Little bit of both is what is good for developing economies and developing industrial sectors but we are still learning on where to draw the line on how much is too much but there is a lot to be learned yet.

[1] : http://www.psmag.com/nature-and-technology/iraqi-vikings-far...

[2] : http://www.voxeu.org/article/stalin-and-soviet-industrialisa...

[3] : http://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edition/e_business/72...

Re: Andy Grove’s Warning to Silicon Valley

#206

The mystery at the center of all this is "Why is it so astronomically cheap to do the x in Asia vs the U.S?". Not just cheap as in low wage, but cheap as in finished goods costing less than the cost of materials delivered to the American factory. It's not just manufacturing. In Thailand you can live in a high rise condo with a gym and maid service and eat out every day and do some traveling for $2000/month. That life…

Any source on "1/5 the price to build the fab in Taiwan"

Googling I found:

"Taiwan Semiconductor, the world’s biggest custom-chipmaker, plans record spending on plants and equipment this year. It’s lavishing $12 billion on factories -- more than Intel Corp. has ever spent in a year"

Which looks more like Taiwan being enthusiastic for building tech stuff rather than dirt cheap. I'm recently back from Taiwan and I'm not sure the costs are much lower than rural USA.

Re: Andy Grove’s Warning to Silicon Valley

#207
post #69
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How should I best let consumers know that my product is different because of its features, or the craftsmanship, or whatever. Should we all live in universes bounded by the speed of chatter, so that HN's pure market sensibilities can be satisfied? Should I just wait for customers to stumble upon the right keywords to make my product show up in their ad-free search results? the problem is that there's a conflict of…

> . I'd go to the store and only the top 2-3 products in each catagory are there. Aren't you by limiting selection - limiting innovation, the ability of each one buying according to the price and other characteristics he he sees fit?

Yes, if you hand over the choice of "limit all possibilities down to a few I can choose from" to another party, then yes, you are handing them a lot of power over you.

However, you are probably going to hand that power to someone - there are just too many products to research them all. I am arguing that you are probably better off if you hand that power off to an entity who's only revenue source is you and people like you, than if you hand that choice off to conventional advertising agencies.

Re: Andy Grove’s Warning to Silicon Valley

#208

There is supposedly some reshoring in the US but I don't really see it from hardware startups unless they have something bulky/specialized/low volume. The bigger question is not whether we should employ in one taxation region or another to concentrate wealth as we see fit, but rather how quickly generalized arms, machine vision and new manufacturing processes will impact our ability to rely on labor as a source of so…

Lithium batteries are perhaps an example. Grove had:

>The U.S. lost its lead in batteries 30 years ago when it stopped making consumer electronics devices.

>Unlike with microprocessors, the U.S. share of lithium-ion battery production is tiny

But now the cutting edge seems to be Tesla's Gigafactory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigafactory_1

Re: Andy Grove’s Warning to Silicon Valley

#209
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How should I best let consumers know that my product is different because of its features, or the craftsmanship, or whatever. Should we all live in universes bounded by the speed of chatter, so that HN's pure market sensibilities can be satisfied? Should I just wait for customers to stumble upon the right keywords to make my product show up in their ad-free search results? the problem is that there's a conflict of…

The right answer to the research problem is a digest of research results? I think you are overestimating greatly how much people care about most purchasing decisions. A false positive in my almond milk is not going to make a bit of difference, and a true positive will slightly please me for a week. For this, I would go consult Consumer Reports? And how do I know that Customer Summaries isn't more aligned with my valu…

> The right answer to the research problem is a digest of research results? I think you are overestimating greatly how much people care about most purchasing decisions. A false positive in my almond milk is not going to make a bit of difference, and a true positive will slightly please me for a week.

I don't know if limiting consumer choice to a few of the massive number of alternatives is the right answer. It's probably not the optimal answer, but it is the current answer. Right now, most consumers are exposed to 2 or 3 brands of a thing, and which two or three brands is controlled through advertising. What sorts of things a consumer is exposed to is also controlled by advertising.

The problem with advertising, from the consumer's point of view is that the people paying for the advertising have interests that conflict with the consumer's interests.

But yes, right now, advertising serves the product discovery function, and the product discovery function is important.

My argument is just that the consumer would be better off if they paid someone to research the available brands and present them with a manageable number of choices, and with interesting new types of products rather than allowing the people selling them stuff to do that. My argument is that organizations structured like consumer reports, that is, organizations that only accept money from the consumers they are doing research for, would have the fewest conflicts of interest, and thus would probably provide better results (for the consumers) on average.

> For this, I would go consult Consumer Reports? And how do I know that Customer Summaries isn't more aligned with my values anyhow?

The consumer, of course, would still need to choose which consumer research group most closely matched their needs and values, which in and of itself is a hard problem. But, I think if done properly, and conflicts of interest avoided, it is an overall better product discovery system than advertising.

Also, you'd clearly need to figure out some way of making it easier. Following the recommendations of the research agency I have hired needs to be as easy for me as following the recommendations of advertisers is for me right now, at least if we are to use this for things like milk.

(Also, the more I think about it, the more I think what I said about integrating it with a store is a bad idea; it introduces conflicts of interest. But it would be the easiest way to reduce the cost in terms of checking with my research company before buying.)

Re: Andy Grove’s Warning to Silicon Valley

#210

> "There was room for improvement, he argued, for what he called “job-centric” economics and politics. In a job-centric system, job creation would be the nation’s No. 1 objective, with the government setting priorities and arraying the forces necessary to achieve the goal, and with businesses operating not only in their immediate profit interest but also in the interests of “employees, and employees yet to be hired.”…

I saw this a lot in Japan. Construction just to keep people employed. Large event centers that would never be filled. Roads torn up and then repaved in March just to use up budget and keep the money flowing.

The US can be just as bad - it was just easier to see as an outsider abroad.

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