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Andy Grove’s Warning to Silicon Valley

nytimes.com

171–180 of 266 posts

Re: Andy Grove’s Warning to Silicon Valley

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You cannot pay a cost you impose on others with self induced suffering. I cannot steal and break my own toe to "pay it back". That justification is nonsense.

I think you missed the point of the quote: Orwell is saying that to see someone suffer is in line with our ethics; someone who suffers can be ethically reasoned to have earned what dues come their way. Compare the beggar in orwell's quote, if you will, to the injured war veteran who benefits from a fundraiser. He has suffered, so we consider it worthy for him to benefit through community actions. Why is he worthy of…

The difference is intent.

The injured war veteran, at least according to the official fiction, suffered in the course of benefiting the community. Whether they succeeded is up for debate, but the intent to benefit is seen as evidence that gifts/support/etc. won't "enable" them.

Re: Andy Grove’s Warning to Silicon Valley

#172

> "There was room for improvement, he argued, for what he called “job-centric” economics and politics. In a job-centric system, job creation would be the nation’s No. 1 objective, with the government setting priorities and arraying the forces necessary to achieve the goal, and with businesses operating not only in their immediate profit interest but also in the interests of “employees, and employees yet to be hired.”…

Not sure if those are fair analogies, nor an accurate representation of the choices. I live in a social democratic country and low unemployment has always been the cornerstone of social democratic policy. I associate basic income more with liberal politicians.

There are a lot ways in which a job centric approach would affect economic policy which doesn't necessarily mean hole diggers. E.g. in my home country Norway it was seen by the social democrats that maintain an industrial base and the jobs that came with that was crucial. That is why strict rules on usage of oil money in budgets were devised to hinder deindustrialization due to inflation and loss of industrial jobs.

When the oil was found, the conservatives in Norway were ready to hand all the work over to foreign companies. Norway had no expertise at all on oil drilling at the time. But the social democratic government decided that we should have our own oil industry and companies. They established schools, research and a state oil company to reach those goals. Some of the rules had similarities to what China has done to build up their industry with e.g. partnership rules. In fact the Chinese came to Norway decades ago to learn about our policies on this area (undoubtedly they went many other places as well). The previous Chinese experience was that foreign companies owned all the industry, knowledge and took all the profits.

The free market reforms in China has undoubtedly produced much prosperity. But it also seem clear to me that China including every other successful country has had some form of industrial policy. None of the successful asian tigers really follow a laissez-faire system. Pundits will argue they could have been more successful if they did, but I am not convinced.

Re: Andy Grove’s Warning to Silicon Valley

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am reminded of what George Orwelles wrote in "Down and out in Paris and London": > Beggars do not work, it is said; but then, what is work? A navvy works by swinging a pick. An accountant works by adding up figures. A beggar works by standing out of doors in all weathers and getting varicose veins, bronchitis etc. It is a trade like any other; quite useless, of course — but, then, many reputable trades are quite us…

> but, then, many reputable trades are quite useless Brings to mind Graeber's article on "bullshit jobs". http://strikemag.org/bullshit-jobs/

[deleted]

Re: Andy Grove’s Warning to Silicon Valley

#174

> "There was room for improvement, he argued, for what he called “job-centric” economics and politics. In a job-centric system, job creation would be the nation’s No. 1 objective, with the government setting priorities and arraying the forces necessary to achieve the goal, and with businesses operating not only in their immediate profit interest but also in the interests of “employees, and employees yet to be hired.”…

"I believe this "job creation as priority" approach is inferior to both the "laissez-faire" capitalist alternative and the "basic income" social democratic one."

Maybe. My grandfather has a 6th grade education, worked semi-skilled trade labor jobs his entire life, and was able to amass a multi-million dollar fortune through nothing more complicated than buying unused land and occasionally parking cash in certificates of deposit. Admittedly something of an outlier. I mention it only to highlight what was reasonably possible for a working man 50 years ago. This being the case I question the need for new, untried solutions to problems we, as a nation, did not have 50 years ago and that we already know the cause of. Occam's Razor would have me believe the correct course of action would be to incentivize rebooting the manufacturing sector in this country while reinstating the trade tariffs that protected our industries up until the early 90's.

Re: Andy Grove’s Warning to Silicon Valley

#176
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Today, the ditch digging s done with small excavators, not with hordes of guys with shovels...

This is a good point. Technology replaces labor with capital. I remember reading controversy over the stimulus program, that hundreds of thousands of dollars were spent for every job created. Those people would have been much better off if the money went directly to them, instead of indirectly through jobs programs. But that's not politically popular (with the right.) Alternatively the government could subsidize wage…

"As automation replaces more and more of the unskilled workforce, we should just accept it and adopt a basic income."

Maybe. There are still vast pools of unskilled jobs that exist globally. They're vanishing in the US in no small part because our industries are forced to compete with business concerns that can take advantage of what equates to slave labor in less developed parts of the world.

Re: Andy Grove’s Warning to Silicon Valley

#177
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given the absolutely embarrassing state of our country, hole diggers are exactly what we need. Legitimately go pay someone to dig holes all day and lay single-mode fiber to every home. Pay them to turn a wrench replacing support brackets on a bridge. The Works program was the single most successful employer in this country's history and we replaced it with welfare because "unemployment is low and we don't need it any…

And when they're done? What about the jobs!

While a job might not produce anything of value to a customer, I think it is often forgotten that a job also has the dual purpose of skills training.

People doing "useless" jobs might acquire the skills to do other and more useful jobs in the future. Keeping people unemployed has a high cost in the form of loss of skills over time, mental health etc.

If you don't keep things going you might risk losing some people forever as their skills become so obsolete and their motivation and work capacity destroyed.

Companies will usually not higher long term unemployed so that is why many people can get permanently lost to the labour market.

Re: Andy Grove’s Warning to Silicon Valley

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The last paragraph is just speculation as to what they might find based on some investment research I've done while traveling in various developing countries. My speculation is that land prices in America are vastly inflated because there is so much credit available to buy them while in developing countries there is very little credit available for borrowing against land. In Argentina and most of Latin America for ex…

But then it is not land prices itself but rather the availability of the credit that seems to be the fundamental disparity, isn't it? And you could question why there's such a big difference in credit availability, which comes down to accumulated capital and to productivity/technology. Not to disparage your argument, but aren't you just saying more productive/advanced regions have more expensive stuff?

I think American financial institutions and their clients have a slight advantage when it comes to getting dollar credit than financial institutions in developing countries. That's why when American companies get cheap money it does so much more overseas.

Re: Andy Grove’s Warning to Silicon Valley

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The last paragraph is just speculation as to what they might find based on some investment research I've done while traveling in various developing countries. My speculation is that land prices in America are vastly inflated because there is so much credit available to buy them while in developing countries there is very little credit available for borrowing against land. In Argentina and most of Latin America for ex…

And, you know wages are way lower in those developing countries with cheap land. You may want to adjust for average and median wages when comparing the cost of living in various countries.

Wages are lower because expenses are lower. Mexican immigrants who can't earn enough to live in the U.S move back to Mexico. Expats living in low rent countries will underbid those living in high cost countries, even with equivalent skills.

Re: Andy Grove’s Warning to Silicon Valley

#180

> "There was room for improvement, he argued, for what he called “job-centric” economics and politics. In a job-centric system, job creation would be the nation’s No. 1 objective, with the government setting priorities and arraying the forces necessary to achieve the goal, and with businesses operating not only in their immediate profit interest but also in the interests of “employees, and employees yet to be hired.”…

Not sure if those are fair analogies, nor an accurate representation of the choices. I live in a social democratic country and low unemployment has always been the cornerstone of social democratic policy. I associate basic income more with liberal politicians. There are a lot ways in which a job centric approach would affect economic policy which doesn't necessarily mean hole diggers. E.g. in my home country Norway i…

> None of the successful asian tigers really follow a laissez-faire system. Pundits will argue they could have been more successful if they did, but I am not convinced.

Great post. I'm reminded of the book "Bad Samaritans" by Ha-Joon Chang.

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