Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

BMW, Audi and Toyota cars can be unlocked and started with hacked radios

telegraph.co.uk

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

111–118 of 118 posts

Re: BMW, Audi and Toyota cars can be unlocked and started with hacked radios

#111

Post by csours »

pandaman wrote: post #100
csours wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a source for your doubt? It would be more technically accurate to say that the car is dependent on signal fall-off than signal strength, but that seems to be a distinction without a difference to me. >A PKES car key uses an LF RFID tag that provides short range communication (within 1-2 m in active and a few centimeters in passive mode) and a fully-fledged UHF transceiver for longer range communication (w…

As you can see on the picture yourself, the inside/outside zones are very close to each other. Locating a key with such a precision based on the signal strength alone does not seem possible for following reasons: the key's transmitter is too small to provide stable signal level, the key is located in very anisotropic environment, the car itself changes its shape and hence RF loss from different directions.

Let's assume that each of us knows what we are talking about.

Yes, the actual key itself is located by the car based on Low Frequency RFID.

The attack described is a relay attack, which means that the key can be spoofed in real time by relaying short range radio transmissions to two locations.

The mistaken assumption of the security system is that the short range communication protocol used by the car and the key requires the key to be in close proximity to the car.

Since the communication may be relayed, the range assumption is invalid. The main suggestion is to use high precision timing to determine the range, as it is very difficult to cheat on the speed of light.

I agree that "signal strength" is not the best way to phrase the above in a technical discussion.

I have not seen any indication that triangulation or any other physical location system is used in vehicle PKES.

Re: BMW, Audi and Toyota cars can be unlocked and started with hacked radios

#112

Post by beeboop »

baq wrote: post #107
beeboop wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is this a deal breaker for you, but windows aren't? Someone can break into any car through a window using a rock.

1) a broken window is easily noticeable and a giveaway that the car could be stolen. 2) breaking a window creates noise, usually. 3) it still takes time to start the car after you break into it. not so when you hack the radio. all in all, this hack turns something that would take minutes into something that takes a couple of seconds and leaves the vehicle intact, i.e. beyond suspicion.

People are going to be breaking into your car to steal stuff 99% of the time, not trying to steal the car itself. They are often homeless, or have some sort of chemical dependency, or are mentally ill. They are not going to have the foresight, funds, or ingenuity to use some sort of electronic hacking device. They are not going to make the effort to scout out people as they leave their cars (of only certain makes and models) and play secret agent to use some sort of device between the owner and the car. And they break windows in broad daylight all the time - just smash, grab, and run. It's not like anyone is going to try to tackle a meth head running away with some stranger's $90 GPS.

Even on the infinitesimal chance they steal the car itself, you have car insurance. It doesn't really matter aside from the inconvenience, and the odds are so low it seems like a silly thing to be an absolute deal breaker for anyone.

Re: BMW, Audi and Toyota cars can be unlocked and started with hacked radios

#113

Post by beachstartup »

agumonkey wrote: post #97
beachstartup wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

old busted stuff is likely to be stolen if there's a healthy grey aftermarket for said old busted stuff parts. the cheaper the stuff, the healthier the aftermarket, if it's a mass produced item. people who buy cheap stuff want to buy even cheaper stuff parts when the stuff breaks.

I underplayed how busted it was. Slick tires, rusty rims. 1995 cheap model of a cheap brand. Simplest Shimano gear shifting mechanism, obsolete thumb push. Plastic brake handles. Blue, pink, fluo yellow frame paint. Gah, I loved that shitty bike to pieces, I nearly died on it so many times T_T;

"shitty and old" is now "vintage" to the right crowd. someone who owns a crooked bike shop is probably stripping and repainting old cheap frames and marketing them to young hipsters.

Re: BMW, Audi and Toyota cars can be unlocked and started with hacked radios

#114

Post by mleonhard »

big_al337 wrote: post #12
pmille5 wrote: post #3

The auto manufacturers (and for that matter all the "IoT" creators) couldn't give two shits about protecting consumers. Building security into this stuff is trivial and a responsibility.

How would you prevent this type of attack while retaining the keyless start and entry feature? (just curious)

Make the driver press a button on the fob to unlock the door.

Re: BMW, Audi and Toyota cars can be unlocked and started with hacked radios

#115

Post by baq »

beeboop wrote: post #112
baq wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) a broken window is easily noticeable and a giveaway that the car could be stolen. 2) breaking a window creates noise, usually. 3) it still takes time to start the car after you break into it. not so when you hack the radio. all in all, this hack turns something that would take minutes into something that takes a couple of seconds and leaves the vehicle intact, i.e. beyond suspicion.

People are going to be breaking into your car to steal stuff 99% of the time, not trying to steal the car itself. They are often homeless, or have some sort of chemical dependency, or are mentally ill. They are not going to have the foresight, funds, or ingenuity to use some sort of electronic hacking device. They are not going to make the effort to scout out people as they leave their cars (of only certain makes and…

just for the record, i've got a radio key for my car, the convience factor is much bigger than i anticipated :)

Re: BMW, Audi and Toyota cars can be unlocked and started with hacked radios

#116

Post by gambiting »

Grishnakh wrote: post #104
gambiting wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every car has a serial number in several places, in theory it should be trivial to find a stolen one, yet plenty of cars are stolen each yer. Clearly this does not solve the problem.

It solves the problem in Japan. Japan just isn't like other countries; they have citizens who actually care about their society and don't want to be seen as leeches on it. It's no wonder they don't want to import a bunch of foreigners. I can just imagine how their society would be completely ruined if they allowed millions of Americans to move in. Bike theft would be the least of their problems.

The question is - would japan have a bike theft problem without bike registration scheme? I suspect not, for the reasons you mentioned. In which case, the registration numbers are more of a curiosity than anything.

My own country(Poland) had mandatory bike registration 30 years ago(during communist rule) and no, it didn't stop bike theft.

Re: BMW, Audi and Toyota cars can be unlocked and started with hacked radios

#117

Post by agumonkey »

zw123456 wrote: post #110
agumonkey wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You must have had a nice grin seeing that. I also read reverse psychology tricks on biking boards such as not locking the bike, which convey a sense that the owner is not far / in sight and scare most robbers. Requires balls.

OK, one more of my dopey stories.. I live on the shores of Lake Washington and some years back (when I was a lot younger) I was into wind surfing and I had a pretty nice rig. I was moving to a new place and I had long since drifted away from the hobby of wind surfing to I list my board and rig to sell, but I didn't get any responses so for a fun experiment I carried it across the street and rigged it up and just left…

Just like people reading comments 13 days ago on buried threads. Very very nice story.

Re: BMW, Audi and Toyota cars can be unlocked and started with hacked radios

#118

Post by agumonkey »

beachstartup wrote: post #113
agumonkey wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I underplayed how busted it was. Slick tires, rusty rims. 1995 cheap model of a cheap brand. Simplest Shimano gear shifting mechanism, obsolete thumb push. Plastic brake handles. Blue, pink, fluo yellow frame paint. Gah, I loved that shitty bike to pieces, I nearly died on it so many times T_T;

"shitty and old" is now "vintage" to the right crowd. someone who owns a crooked bike shop is probably stripping and repainting old cheap frames and marketing them to young hipsters.

Really, I considered this one to have no charm, no vintage, nothing. Really cheap 90s crap from the low end of the generic bike shelves at your mall.
Post reply on HN