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BMW, Audi and Toyota cars can be unlocked and started with hacked radios

telegraph.co.uk

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Re: BMW, Audi and Toyota cars can be unlocked and started with hacked radios

#91

Post by tremon »

gambiting wrote: post #82
tremon wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The GP's point still stands: if you are within transmitting range of your car, anyone can push the button on the car door and open it. I doubt that the transmitter verifies line of sight between it and the car.

I have a car with that system and in my experience you need to be really close to the car for the system to work. Stand further away than arms length from the handle and the car won't open even if someone else tries to open it. Also it looks like the car has independent antennas on each side - even if I stand very close to the driver side, you can't open the car by pulling the handle on the passenger's side.

Thanks for that. If it is even sensitive to which side of the car you're on, that implies a really short-range sensor. The potential to use a signal booster still remains, but at least there is no risk of inadvertently opening your car just because you're on the other side of a wall.

I really wish car manufacturers would not rely on security through obscurity for these systems though.

Re: BMW, Audi and Toyota cars can be unlocked and started with hacked radios

#93

Post by csours »

pandaman wrote: post #90
csours wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole point is the the car is using signal strength as a proxy for proximity, which is unreliable when you can use an transceiver and/or amplifier to boost the signal strength from a remote key.

Not sure if you've miss-replied, but in case you imply the key location works on signal strength I doubt that very much.

Do you have a source for your doubt? It would be more technically accurate to say that the car is dependent on signal fall-off than signal strength, but that seems to be a distinction without a difference to me.

>A PKES car key uses an LF RFID tag that provides short range communication (within 1-2 m in active and a few centimeters in passive mode) and a fully-fledged UHF transceiver for longer range communication (within 10 to 100 m). The LF channel is used to detect if the key fob is within regions Inside and Outside of the car. Figure 2(b) shows the areas in proximity of the car that must be detected in order to allow a safe and convenient use of the PKES system. The regions are as follows. [1]

1. http://www.syssec.ethz.ch/content/dam/ethz/special-interest/...

Re: BMW, Audi and Toyota cars can be unlocked and started with hacked radios

#94

Post by beeboop »

Cshelton wrote: post #92

Car maker's take note: That list is now a list of cars I will not buy. Many other consumers probably feel the same.

Why is this a deal breaker for you, but windows aren't? Someone can break into any car through a window using a rock.

Re: BMW, Audi and Toyota cars can be unlocked and started with hacked radios

#95

Post by doublerebel »

sebular wrote: post #5

Not my BMW, it's 25 years old and the driver's side door doesn't unlock even if you use a key :P All jokes aside (although it's true about my car), it just seems like a fundamental truth that digitally-secured systems always provide convenience at the cost of, well, security.

Tnis is not a far comparison. Very few modern cars can hold a candle to an E30 :)

Re: BMW, Audi and Toyota cars can be unlocked and started with hacked radios

#96

Post by discreditable »

coldpie wrote: post #75
augustl wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, that's an interesting hack. I can't think of any workarounds either. EDIT: As pointed out in a comment elsewhere in this thread: > The simplest defeat is to require the key ping round trip to complete in N microseconds, where N is sufficiently low. Researchers have demostrated that this is a practical solution.

> Wow, that's an interesting hack. I can't think of any workarounds either. Don't Have Keyless Entry. It's getting to the point where I don't think I'll ever buy a car made after the early 2010s.

On my Toyota Prius, it's possible to turn off the keyless entry system in the car's settings IIRC. You'd then have to use the removable key in the fob to open the driver's door.

Re: BMW, Audi and Toyota cars can be unlocked and started with hacked radios

#97

Post by agumonkey »

beachstartup wrote: post #48
agumonkey wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This article reminds me that I thought old busted stuff were less likely to be stolen. That's why I was pretty confident my very low grade, rusty, ugly single-pedal [1] bike would be safe for a day. Some guys proved me wrong, ripped my far too weak cable locks and did whatever they wanted with what was valuable of that bike (5$ for the metal frame ? the rest was plastic). [1] wear made left pedal unscrew itself over…

old busted stuff is likely to be stolen if there's a healthy grey aftermarket for said old busted stuff parts. the cheaper the stuff, the healthier the aftermarket, if it's a mass produced item. people who buy cheap stuff want to buy even cheaper stuff parts when the stuff breaks.

I underplayed how busted it was. Slick tires, rusty rims. 1995 cheap model of a cheap brand. Simplest Shimano gear shifting mechanism, obsolete thumb push. Plastic brake handles. Blue, pink, fluo yellow frame paint. Gah, I loved that shitty bike to pieces, I nearly died on it so many times T_T;

Re: BMW, Audi and Toyota cars can be unlocked and started with hacked radios

#98

Post by mirimir »

agumonkey wrote: post #36
mirimir wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"this bike is a pipe bomb" https://farm4.static.flickr.com/3277/3011586006_42403e0788.j... It was a folkie punk band ;) With that promotional sticker. I had one, but didn't put it on my bike.

Nice alarm system that consists of a sticker.

Maybe. Except for the "brought in for questioning by police, bike impounded, paying for a lawyer, etc" parts :(

I must say, however, that after my new (expensive, and lovingly customized and maintained) bike was stolen, I did fantasize about remote-controlled explosives. But then I just filed an insurance claim, and replaced it ;)

Re: BMW, Audi and Toyota cars can be unlocked and started with hacked radios

#99

Post by massemphasis »

Umm... how old is this hack? Over a decade ago, one of my friends used to drive a somewhat nice car that he modded and fixed up on his own. He always threw his keys with the alarm dongle thing, etc... in the freezer and I never asked why.

edit: Although his car was still eventually stolen when the thieves used some kind of specialized tools to bend his car's hood. The tool allowed them to bend the hood without triggering the alarm somehow and cut the power sources to the alarms. Then they put it on a repo/tow truck and drove away. I guess he showed his alarm to the wrong hot girl he would always bring around when we all hanged out.

When the police found the car everything was gone except for the car's frame and bent hood.

Re: BMW, Audi and Toyota cars can be unlocked and started with hacked radios

#100

Post by pandaman »

csours wrote: post #93
pandaman wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure if you've miss-replied, but in case you imply the key location works on signal strength I doubt that very much.

Do you have a source for your doubt? It would be more technically accurate to say that the car is dependent on signal fall-off than signal strength, but that seems to be a distinction without a difference to me. >A PKES car key uses an LF RFID tag that provides short range communication (within 1-2 m in active and a few centimeters in passive mode) and a fully-fledged UHF transceiver for longer range communication (w…

As you can see on the picture yourself, the inside/outside zones are very close to each other. Locating a key with such a precision based on the signal strength alone does not seem possible for following reasons: the key's transmitter is too small to provide stable signal level, the key is located in very anisotropic environment, the car itself changes its shape and hence RF loss from different directions.
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