School used student laptop webcams to spy on them at school and home • Hacker News Board

Re: School used student laptop webcams to spy on them at school and home

#131

Post by anamax » Thu, Feb 18, 2010, 10:08 PM UTC

lambda wrote: post #100

anamax wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As long as there is no indication that there were sexual motives, than no accusations of sexual motives should be made. That's not how child porn laws work. Laws should always be enforced most harshly against govt agents and folks who actually advocate the laws in question. Govt employment is not a right and if someone is unwilling to accept heightened scrutiny, they can work for someone who is willing to accomodat…

No, laws should be applied equally to everyone. You should not be punished more harshly because you are a "government agent." What does your postal clerk have to do with some idiot congressman who passed too strict a law on child porn?

Govt workers typically have great authority to impose things on other people. For example, school officials can suspend students.

If they're not up to being held to a higher standard, they're not up to having authority.

Plus, enforcing more harshly on them brings attention to bad laws.

Like I said, if they're unwilling to accept this, if they want to be treated like an ordinary citizen, they can quit govt work and become one. No one is forcing them to work for govt.

Re: School used student laptop webcams to spy on them at school and home

#132

Post by chrischen » Thu, Feb 18, 2010, 10:22 PM UTC

soult wrote: post #50

bgraves wrote: post #25

This was part of a program on PBS called Digital Nation. The show was very interesting, and there's a section where the school IT administrator demonstrates his ability to pull up a students laptop ... and working webcam. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/digitalnation/learni... The relevant part starts at about 4:35. "They don't even realize that we are watching. I always like to mess with them and take a pict…

That's horrible! Also: How the hell did they finance handing out Mac laptops to all their students?

I thought they were using laptops on carts. My school does that too. Did they give every student a computer to take home?

Re: School used student laptop webcams to spy on them at school and home

#133

Post by timwiseman » Thu, Feb 18, 2010, 10:36 PM UTC

furyg3 wrote: post #80

cduan wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There doesn't appear to be a claim in the complaint regarding any child pornography laws yet. But who knows--that may change if new photos turn up during discovery. Here's some thoughts on the Fourth Amendment illegal search claim, at least: There is this 2001 case, Kyllo v. United States, that held it illegal for the police to use a thermal scanner to detect heat lamps in a guy's house (the heat lamps being used to…

That's with regard to a crime, however, not a school policy. You may very well be allowed to die your hair blue, have a "legalize weed" bumper sticker on your guitar case, or an explicit novel in your backpack off campus, but if you do any of those things on-campus you violate school rules and can be punished. Furthermore, even things you do off-campus can violate your school's code of conduct (writing about how much…

Where the lines are drawn as to what activities done off-campus that can be punished on campus (such as talking badly about your teacher) is a legally contentious issue right now. Here is a basic writeup of one currently ongoing case: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/02/student-susp...

(And obviously, IANAL).

Re: School used student laptop webcams to spy on them at school and home

#134

Post by flogic » Thu, Feb 18, 2010, 10:47 PM UTC

bgraves wrote: post #25

This was part of a program on PBS called Digital Nation. The show was very interesting, and there's a section where the school IT administrator demonstrates his ability to pull up a students laptop ... and working webcam. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/digitalnation/learni... The relevant part starts at about 4:35. "They don't even realize that we are watching. I always like to mess with them and take a pict…

I think this is a clear indication that we need an IT code of ethics. Yeah it's cute that as a programmer or administrator you have all this power, but we don't have the right to invade people's privacy.

Re: School used student laptop webcams to spy on them at school and home

#135

Post by koepked » Thu, Feb 18, 2010, 10:51 PM UTC

anamax wrote: post #131

lambda wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, laws should be applied equally to everyone. You should not be punished more harshly because you are a "government agent." What does your postal clerk have to do with some idiot congressman who passed too strict a law on child porn?

Govt workers typically have great authority to impose things on other people. For example, school officials can suspend students. If they're not up to being held to a higher standard, they're not up to having authority. Plus, enforcing more harshly on them brings attention to bad laws. Like I said, if they're unwilling to accept this, if they want to be treated like an ordinary citizen, they can quit govt work and be…

Some government workers have great authority to impose things on people, but I don't know if I'd agree that it's typical.

Re: School used student laptop webcams to spy on them at school and home

#136

Post by kelnos » Thu, Feb 18, 2010, 10:54 PM UTC

dnsworks wrote: post #111

lambda wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, laws should be applied equally to everyone. You should not be punished more harshly because you are a "government agent." What does your postal clerk have to do with some idiot congressman who passed too strict a law on child porn?

Why? Crimes against government agents are prosecuted far more severely than crimes against the common man. If you rob a post office at gunpoint, it's a federal felony, with more extreme punishments than if you rob a corner store at gunpoint. The law singles out government employees as being more important than the common man in terms of protection.

You've answered your own question. The law doesn't say government agents who engage in child pornography should be punished more severely than regular citizens. In the case of holding up a post office at gunpoint, it's not applying the law differently because the law is different.

FWIW, my understanding is that messing with the post in general is a federal crime. It has nothing to do with the government employee being more 'important' than the common man; that's just an unintended side effect.

Re: School used student laptop webcams to spy on them at school and home

#137

Post by kelnos » Thu, Feb 18, 2010, 10:56 PM UTC

wtallis wrote: post #112

lambda wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, laws should be applied equally to everyone. You should not be punished more harshly because you are a "government agent." What does your postal clerk have to do with some idiot congressman who passed too strict a law on child porn?

Postal workers shouldn't necessarily be blamed for pornography laws, but that doesn't mean government agents should be treated equally. Highway patrol officers who break traffic laws without using lights and sirens should be punished more severely than a first-time offender who is a normal citizen. Cops who abuse their power need to serve prison time. With great power comes great responsibility. We give our public sc…

"If they abuse the public trust, the potential for damage is much higher, and the punishment should be correspondingly more severe."

I don't disagree, but that's not what the law says. Get it into a law, and then reality will match up with your belief.

Re: School used student laptop webcams to spy on them at school and home

#138

Post by kelnos » Thu, Feb 18, 2010, 11:18 PM UTC

ugh wrote: post #13

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The underlying issue here, at least in the U.S., is that as a parent, I'm responsible for anything that happens to my children. Kid misses school, I get in trouble. Kid deals drugs, I can go to jail. Kid has a mental disorder that causes them to be violent and I let them roam free? I am responsible for the consequences. Kid keeps contraband in my car or house? I could lose my car or house to the authorities. It's hig…

Is the law that different? I know that in Germany it's quite hard to demonstrate that you have claims against the parents if their child damages something. You basically have to demonstrate that the parents really screwed up. If not, you are on your own. In Germany parents are most definitly not responsible for everything their child does. And I never said that children have or should have the same rights as grown-up…

So you're saying that, in Germany, if a nine-year-old walks home from the playground and decides to pick up a stick and scratch up the paint on my car, and I'm somehow able to find out and prove that this kid did it, I can't hold either the kid or their parents responsible, and have to pay out of my own pocket to get it repaired? That's... retarded.

Re: School used student laptop webcams to spy on them at school and home

#139

Post by gridspy » Fri, Feb 19, 2010, 2:33 AM UTC

wtallis wrote: post #112

lambda wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, laws should be applied equally to everyone. You should not be punished more harshly because you are a "government agent." What does your postal clerk have to do with some idiot congressman who passed too strict a law on child porn?

Postal workers shouldn't necessarily be blamed for pornography laws, but that doesn't mean government agents should be treated equally. Highway patrol officers who break traffic laws without using lights and sirens should be punished more severely than a first-time offender who is a normal citizen. Cops who abuse their power need to serve prison time. With great power comes great responsibility. We give our public sc…

I hate to think what would happen to a police officer serving serious time in a normal prison.

Re: School used student laptop webcams to spy on them at school and home

#140

Post by Alex3917 » Fri, Feb 19, 2010, 3:30 AM UTC

Confusion wrote: post #91

dbz wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone who even knew about the computer webcam spying should go to prison. The fact that this could have been used as spying for child pornography- should be treated as an attempt of attaining child pornography.

No it shouldn't. As long as there is no indication that there were sexual motives, than no accusations of sexual motives should be made. The invasion of our rights in the name of our children has gone far enough. You shouldn't gratuitously say anything that encourages child pornography hysteria. You are just saying it because it serves your point that these guys should be punished severely. However, not even these gu…

"As long as there is no indication that there were sexual motives, than no accusations of sexual motives should be made."

I think the argument is that secretly videotaping children within their own homes is inherently sexual. And even if it isn't, this seems like a clear violation of Roe v Wade.