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Death by gentrification: the killing that shamed San Francisco

theguardian.com

181–190 of 318 posts

Re: Death by gentrification: the killing that shamed San Francisco

#181

There's a lot left out in Solnit's article, see: http://www.modernluxury.com/san-francisco/story/alex-nieto-w...

How can you ignore the inciting incident in this case? Perhaps the victim was a man with some personal issues, but before being harassed by Evan Snow, Alex Nieto was a man minding his own business.

That's not what happened. Snow was an irresponsible dog owner; his dog jumped on Nieto. That happens to me on walks once every other week. I am rarely murdered as a result.

What made this situation special was that Nieto was armed with a taser. When Snow's dog assaulted him, as poorly managed dogs do, Nieto prepared to zap it with the taser.

Snow tried to tell Nieto not to tase his dog (the DA investigation says that Snow "begged" Nieto not to tase his dog, but let's allocate all charity to the dead and assume Snow was a dick about it). Nieto's problem stopped being the dog. Instead, he confronted Snow, threatening to tase him, and suggesting that the two fight. That, too, is detail we can only source from Snow's own report, but it squares with things like the text he sent to his friend and the reports he made to people outside the park.

Re: Death by gentrification: the killing that shamed San Francisco

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No shit! I agree. I read the first half of the first graf of the story angry at Solnit, for singling out this guy and scare-quoting his occupation. Then I got to the bit about the dog jumping up on Nieto and the simpering excuse-making this guy made about that and I instantly got angry at the guy instead. What an asshole! That lasted a couple minutes. But "poorly managed, barking dog jumps up on someone" happens mill…

If true, why had his taser license not been revoked?

Is there a such thing as a taser license?

I don't think people should be allowed to arbitrarily carry tasers around, either, by the way. Certainly I don't think it's OK for bar bounces to have them. Dozens of people die every year when the police tase them. Tasers are not safe.

Re: Death by gentrification: the killing that shamed San Francisco

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a person Rebecca Solnit chose to single out, carefully juxtaposing reports of his (incredibly obnoxious) behavior against Nieto's shooting, to which, even by Solnit's account (read carefully), he was not a party . I don't want to get drinks with this character in Solnit's story, either. But I'm not sure we should applaud the tactic of summoning up and focusing outrage on people like this.

Other people said he seemed agitated and nervous when their dogs were walking about by him. I imagine if a dog just charged at you and was barking/howling while its owner was staring at someone's ass, you'd be on edge for a bit as well.

[deleted]

Re: Death by gentrification: the killing that shamed San Francisco

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's certainly not that simple. It's still a very stark contrast that the SF police department fired a years supply of bullets in a single incident. I picked 2014 because it's the last available stats atm, and it's actually slightly above average. On average, per use of deadly force, the german police fires about 1/20th - 1/40th in terms of number of bullets. One reason for that is that the german police is train…

When you fire a gun at someone, your goal is to kill them. If you're confronting an armed subject and you manage only to wound them, then not only are you making it possible for the to shoot you back, but you're making it overwhelmingly likely that they will --- who could blame them for trying desperately to save their own lives? So to me, 1 bullet, 20 bullets, 40 bullets, who cares? Dead is dead. If you don't want p…

Why fire at all in the given setting? Instead of "Wait for backup, clear out the area"? Retreat out of the immediate danger area, take cover, take time to assess the situation. The general way things go wrong seems to be "police arrives at scene, pulls gun, pulls trigger until clip is empty." [1] - in this case multiple officers, even after the assumed hostile was on the ground and not moving. I'm fine with a deliberate assessment and a deliberate kill shot - it's warranted some times and in that case shoot to kill and make it count. It's just that I don't see the assessment.

[1] the kid on the playground in cleveland, the guy in the supermarket aisle, ...

Re: Death by gentrification: the killing that shamed San Francisco

#185
post #121
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That the police shot this person at all is a tragedy, but the number of bullets --- a detail reported brethlessly in all police shooting stories --- isn't particularly important. Police training demands they shoot to kill. The notion of using a firearm merely to wound is mostly a TV fiction. Especially with a subject they believe to be armed (as with this case, where someone called 911 reporting a gun), if the police…

> Police training demands they shoot to kill. Something that is incredibly fucking stupid, and there are plenty of countries who do very well without this misguided use of of lethal weapons.

>Something that is incredibly fucking stupid

Any evidence of this point?

>and there are plenty of countries who do very well without this misguided use of of lethal weapons.

Many countries choose to not use guns. There is a vast difference between not using guns and trying to shoot to wound. If you want to protest against the police using guns, speak directly to that.

Re: Death by gentrification: the killing that shamed San Francisco

#186
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether he did or not is almost irrelevant. The police wouldn't have even been there if some dude hadn't decided to call 911 on the guy for "walking while hispanic": > Fritz said he only saw Nieto pacing near a bench and eating from a bag but did not himself see any weapon. http://missionlocal.org/2016/03/witness-testified-alex-nieto...

Fritz wasn't the one who called the police. Multiple other witnesses testify that Nieto had the weapon out and was pointing it at people and a dog: http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Man-killed-by-S-F-police... What would you have done if you'd seen that?

> Fritz wasn't the one who called the police.

Yes, he was.

> What would you have done if you'd seen that?

I disagree with the ridiculous US weapons laws, but if a defensive weapon can't be drawn against an aggressive dog, when can it be drawn?

Re: Death by gentrification: the killing that shamed San Francisco

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If true, why had his taser license not been revoked?

Is there a such thing as a taser license? I don't think people should be allowed to arbitrarily carry tasers around, either, by the way. Certainly I don't think it's OK for bar bounces to have them. Dozens of people die every year when the police tase them. Tasers are not safe.

Gonna need a citation? Tasers certainly sound safer: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3800082

Re: Death by gentrification: the killing that shamed San Francisco

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a such thing as a taser license? I don't think people should be allowed to arbitrarily carry tasers around, either, by the way. Certainly I don't think it's OK for bar bounces to have them. Dozens of people die every year when the police tase them. Tasers are not safe.

Gonna need a citation? Tasers certainly sound safer: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3800082

Your argument here appears to be that I am misguided because tasers are safer than firearms. I am not in favor of guns either.

Re: Death by gentrification: the killing that shamed San Francisco

#189
post #36
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because in order for cities to function properly, it's important that blue collar workers are able to afford to inhabit them. Un-governed gentrification and unreasonably low levels of low income housing result in situations like exist in the SFBA now, where many middle class households are either forced into extraordinarily long commutes (leads to higher stress, worse health and increased mortality) or cramped living…

What force makes people stay living in the same rented house no matter how bad it makes their life? Somehow people all across America are managing to survive despite not living in gentrified areas. Is SFBA the only place those middle class people can find a job? That sounds kind of unbelievable. Are they unmotivated to move because it's too much hard work? Afraid of losing friends and being unable to make new ones? I…

> I once lived in London and the two were almost equal. Life was less comfortable then but I certainly didn't blame the rich bankers for pushing up my rent and bus fares.

I don't know your particular situation, but moving in a place you already know is expensive is an entirely different case than being priced out of a place you've already been living. (Plus it's hard to blame individual bankers or techies or whatever for it, it's more of a matter of public policy).

Re: Death by gentrification: the killing that shamed San Francisco

#190
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except this incident precipitated the other events by likely distressing Alex Nieto and causing him to appear agitated.

I do not like being manipulated by journalists abusing their positions to push their preferred narrative. Solnit would like us to believe Snow was complicit in Nieto's killing, because it supports her narrative. Surely Solnit was made aware, before this article was published, of critically important details, like Nieto's diagnosed and medicated psychosis (he was off his meds), or his record of having violently confro…

no... Solint is using Snow as a narrative for representing the attitudes the gentrification brought into Alex's neighborhood. The attitudes that lead to Alex's death.

SoInit is not presenting all the facts because that is not a journalist's job. She has only a limited amount of space (yes even on the web) to work with.

But why are you talking about the messenger rather than the message?

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