Death by gentrification: the killing that shamed San Francisco • Hacker News Board

Re: Death by gentrification: the killing that shamed San Francisco

#171

Post by 33W » Thu, Mar 24, 2016, 2:58 PM UTC

justaman wrote: post #65

czechdeveloper wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People don't fall dead after single bullet like in movies. In real scenarios 40 bullets are quite usual.

This means each officer probably fired 10 rounds. This can be done in less than 5 seconds with a standard issue glock.

According to the article at least (which has been pointed out to be one-sided), at least one of the officers empties the first magazine and reloads. This would be 15-17 for the first officer, and the article also notes that the second car arrived after the shooting begun.

I don't know everything that happened, and haven't developed an opinion overall, but it isn't as simple as rounds fired / number of officers.

Re: Death by gentrification: the killing that shamed San Francisco

#172

Post by joesmo » Thu, Mar 24, 2016, 2:59 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #99

Fiahil wrote: post #35

So. Four policemen put 40 bullets in somebody, and that's supposed to be "normal". What the hell?

That the police shot this person at all is a tragedy, but the number of bullets --- a detail reported brethlessly in all police shooting stories --- isn't particularly important. Police training demands they shoot to kill. The notion of using a firearm merely to wound is mostly a TV fiction. Especially with a subject they believe to be armed (as with this case, where someone called 911 reporting a gun), if the police…

No, it's not reasonable. These are allegedly highly trained professionals who spend a significant portion of their time training with firearms and they can't bring down one unarmed person without using more than one magazine and over 20 bullets each? They should be fired for being incompetent shooters at the very least. Absolutely unacceptable. If you're going to murder someone as a cop and be believable about it, do it on the first shot. If you reload, you're a murderer unless you're police and the defendant can't even get one Hispanic juror on the jury in the Mission of all places on earth. If this shooting hadn't been done by the police does anyone think the shooters wouldn't have been convicted of murder?

Re: Death by gentrification: the killing that shamed San Francisco

#173

Post by whatok » Thu, Mar 24, 2016, 3:00 PM UTC

tinco wrote: post #97

raldi wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happens in Europe when someone is seen in a public park waving around something that looks like this? http://i2.wp.com/missionlocal.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03...

He'll be asked to put his weapon down. And will subsequently be charged with possession of a firearm or of something that looks like a firearm, and in addition probably with some kind of charge for endandering people and if he pointed it a police officer there'd be a charge for that as well. If the police felt especially threatened he might be shot in the leg or tasered (depending on what the police in that country i…

Do police in these countries somehow have enhanced marksmanship and reaction times vs US police? I am not going to blame anyone for taking someone pointing a gun at them seriously and protecting their lives. Aiming for someone's leg (or let's try some movie techniques and shoot them in the hand) is only going to slow down reaction time and possibly end up with a worse situation.

Re: Death by gentrification: the killing that shamed San Francisco

#174

Post by JabavuAdams » Thu, Mar 24, 2016, 3:00 PM UTC

wambotron wrote: post #137

tptacek wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a person Rebecca Solnit chose to single out, carefully juxtaposing reports of his (incredibly obnoxious) behavior against Nieto's shooting, to which, even by Solnit's account (read carefully), he was not a party . I don't want to get drinks with this character in Solnit's story, either. But I'm not sure we should applaud the tactic of summoning up and focusing outrage on people like this.

Other people said he seemed agitated and nervous when their dogs were walking about by him. I imagine if a dog just charged at you and was barking/howling while its owner was staring at someone's ass, you'd be on edge for a bit as well.

This entitlement among pet owners to inflict their animals on other people is extremely annoying.

Re: Death by gentrification: the killing that shamed San Francisco

#175

Post by Xylakant » Thu, Mar 24, 2016, 3:01 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #168

Xylakant wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously then the US police officers are trained badly. For 2012 the stats for the german police are: 36 bullets fired at humans, 20 injured, 8 dead. 54 bullets fired as warning shots. So it's possible to incapacitate. Stats for other european countries are similar. Firing 40 bullets at a single human, some of them after the suspect has been hit multiple times and is on the ground (and still missing the majority of…

Meanwhile, the NYPD fires 16 times in a single incident and hits nine bystanders. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/25/nypd-shooting-bystander...

That's probably just dumb luck for the SFPD that the incident happened in a park and not in a crowded street.

Re: Death by gentrification: the killing that shamed San Francisco

#176

Post by mikelward » Thu, Mar 24, 2016, 3:01 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #145

wambotron wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other people said he seemed agitated and nervous when their dogs were walking about by him. I imagine if a dog just charged at you and was barking/howling while its owner was staring at someone's ass, you'd be on edge for a bit as well.

No shit! I agree. I read the first half of the first graf of the story angry at Solnit, for singling out this guy and scare-quoting his occupation. Then I got to the bit about the dog jumping up on Nieto and the simpering excuse-making this guy made about that and I instantly got angry at the guy instead. What an asshole! That lasted a couple minutes. But "poorly managed, barking dog jumps up on someone" happens mill…

If true, why had his taser license not been revoked?

Re: Death by gentrification: the killing that shamed San Francisco

#177

Post by lbebber » Thu, Mar 24, 2016, 3:02 PM UTC

simon_ wrote: post #101

foldr wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aaron Swartz commits suicide after being prosecuted for a crime that he did commit, and he's a martyr. A working class latino guy in San Francisco gets shot by the police because some white dudes didn't like the look of him, and it's basically his fault. Hacker news values.

One might as well say: "20K+ fatalities on the Boko Haram insurgency, and counting, but you're up in arms about one maybe-murder in the most privileged city in the world." Not every community needs to be about every thing.

If this murder was ignored by HN then fine, but the point is that the community is commenting about this case and, by doing that, showing its values.

Re: Death by gentrification: the killing that shamed San Francisco

#178

Post by rlonstein » Thu, Mar 24, 2016, 3:02 PM UTC

Fiahil wrote: post #35

So. Four policemen put 40 bullets in somebody, and that's supposed to be "normal". What the hell?

Stress.

Under stress the fight-or-flight response kicks in and a lot of fine motor skills and training goes out the window. An instructor of mine said that when the adrenaline hits, at best you have half of your trained skill, lose a lot of fine motor control, and won’t be able to think coherently for thirty to sixty seconds. You’ll do what was trained to the point of being automatic or is simple. Police officers typically get somewhere around one hundred hours of firearms training during academy and anywhere from eight to fifty hours of annual retraining, practice, and/or recertification. This is a lot less than needed to become or remain proficient. Had someone asked any of the officers immediately afterward how many times they pulled the trigger they probably would have answered two or three times or that they don’t know.

Re: Death by gentrification: the killing that shamed San Francisco

#179

Post by branchless » Thu, Mar 24, 2016, 3:02 PM UTC

cbeach wrote: post #167

branchless wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand the benefit of credit but not loose credit. If you don't understand 2008 being a problem then this isn't the planet for you. I also like water but understand I can drown in it.

The problem in 2008 was that credit dried up! Remember? The "credit crunch"? A lack of available credit? Which ground the economy to a halt? #facepalm

I'm afraid you are looking at the problem from the wrong end. You are looking at an event and associating it with the immediate result.

Banks lost trust in each other and stopped lending because they knew many were going to fail due to over-issuance of credit leaving them far too leveraged.

Citigroup head: whilst the music is playing we keep dancing.

Your use of twitter hashtag in this debate seems very young.

When you fall off a building it's only the last second that is a problem. Your solution is to keep digging a hole faster than terminal velocity. Mine is to not jump off the building.

Re: Death by gentrification: the killing that shamed San Francisco

#180

Post by JabavuAdams » Thu, Mar 24, 2016, 3:04 PM UTC

nkrisc wrote: post #163

williamcotton wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can tell you first hand that the neighborhood has been overrun by men like Evan Snow. Considering you live in Chicago and that Rebecca and I actually live in Bernal Heights I think we have a much better perspective on the situation. Where I come from you don't call the cops because you think you saw "a Mexican crazy man waving a gun around". If you see something, you leave, and you don't say anything to anyone. If…

Calling he police on someone waving a handgun around in public is not "snitching," it's doing everyone a favor. That said, this isn't directly related to the story at hand as it is not clear that Mr. Nieto was in fact waving a gun around, but appears to be a convenient story from the police to justify having shot him.

> Calling he police on someone waving a handgun around in public is not "snitching," it's doing everyone a favor.

From the perspective of someone who's used to the benefits of calling the cops outweighing the costs. The parent poster gives valuable insight into the thought process learned from the very real places where the cost of calling the cops outweighs the benefits.