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Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

nytimes.com

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Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#131

Post by edwinnathaniel »

ryandrake wrote: post #121
edwinnathaniel wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was on the other side of the table: as an interviewer (plus a resume screener). I've seen this before with my own eyes but then my experience is just an anecdote: back in the 1998-2005 era, people keep piling on multiple technologies: C, C++, Java, Perl, XML, XPath, XQuery, XForms, SOAP, etc but whenever I looked into their resume, it becomes quite clear that they "learn" these technologies while working on somethi…

The programming language keyword padding is a response to employers who inexplicably list very specific language and technology demands. You never see a job posting that says: "Wanted someone who's smart, works hard, and ships software". Imagine a want ad for a carpenter: "Home builder wanted. MUST use Makita brand circular saw."

In my area, usually the employers with job-posts that mention a long-list of techs are from health insurance/claim industry.

Occasionally I saw ads like that being posted by small game companies/digital marketing companies; they fall under the "fishy/avoid" type of companies.

Luckily the sane/majority of the companies here listed their main preferred technology.

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#132

Post by slindsey »

CuriouslyC wrote: post #123
huherto wrote: post #63

I am 47. 27 years of professional experience. Got hooked in Basic. Fell in love with Pascal, C, C++, Smalltalk, Perl, and Java. Most new technologies are a re-encarnation of something that I did already the first time or second time around. I don't think my resume looks trendy. Still, I feel my skills are better than almost all of my friends and coworkers. They are 21-35. But, I see things that they don't. Subtle thi…

To be honest, if I were looking at a resume that reads like I expect yours would, I would probably pass on it unless I was looking for an architect/principal software engineer, and in that case I would need to see interesting technical accomplishments and leadership experience as well. Less experienced developers are cheaper, probably have a more current education, and are less set in their ways (e.i. more trainable)…

It's difficult to codify "career advancement". What does it mean? To whom? I've been a "programmer", "analyst", "database administrator", "developer", "consultant", and "manager". What order shows advancement?

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#133

Post by toyg »

xeromal wrote: post #130
toyg wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The guy at 55 knows what he can give, he's a known quantity at all levels. He will likely hit the ground running without requiring extensive training, because he's seen it all before; and once he's settled, he will have no incentive to move on -- he stopped dreaming about jobs at Google/FB/Twitter a long time ago. If he has a problem, he'll just say it straight to your face with no anger, because he's tired of manage…

He specified junior programming in his argument. If you have a 55 year old who is clueless or green, it might be a tough sell.

As it is a 25 year old who is clueless or green. The argument that the younger guy "can learn" whereas the older dude cannot, is just baseless.

In fact, an older guy who ends up in a junior position willbe much more aware of his lackings and will likely work hard and humbly to overcome them... whereas youngsters usually "know everything" already.

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#134

Post by yummyfajitas »

tetraodonpuffer wrote: post #60
yummyfajitas wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see the problem correcting itself when it seems the drivers behind age discrimination are wages This is a situation where it's not age discrimination at all - it's merely a candidate pricing themselves out of the market. Similarly, toomuchtodo suggests that as his life moves forward he'll be less willing to put the work in than his younger peers. That reduces his value. Perhaps a significant chunk of age disc…

> it's merely a candidate pricing themselves out of the market the pricing out is not always voluntary, say you are mid-career, you've been working hard, you lucked out with some career choices, you've been getting very good raises due to your performance, now you are paid over the high end for your salary band, which is fine where you are working because you've built up credibility and a solid track record, and it c…

This is a tricky situation. I have no good solution beyond changing social norms to make it more acceptable to reduce people's pay (either within a job or across job transitions). Of course, such a change would need to correspond to a change making it less socially acceptable to live up to the edge of one's means.

I have no idea how to enact such change.

And while I am a grey beard myself (and actively advocate hiring a few more greybeards where I work, albeit for selfish reasons), I fully recognize that "youth" and "energy" will be vitally important for many jobs. Our industry may be a naturally pyramid shaped one.

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#135

Post by tremendo »

chroma wrote: post #25
Swizec wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't want to end up being a 50+ year old who can no longer get a job So just stay relevant? I'm 28, been coding for 19 years. What was relevant to learn when I was in middle and high school is completely useless now. All those endless hours spent learning how to make games in Pascal, irrelevant technologies. All those endless hours spent learning PHP3/4 and cobbling together websites and crude frameworks, irrele…

> So just stay relevant? I'm 28, been coding for 19 years. What was relevant to learn when I was in middle and high school is completely useless now. One thing that older people (50+) have impressed upon me is that learning gets harder as you age. It's not just that your body and mind become tired more easily. In general, if a 20-year-old and a 50-year-old spend the same amount of time studying something, the 20-year…

Learning doesn't get harder, but one does become more selective. Most of the "innovation" (not all of course) in programming, is just re-inventing wheels, the new framework is yet-another-way-to-accomplish-the-same-thing and at the same time, a new artificial way to filter out those "not up with the times" for those "not up with the experience". One thing you learn is that you can learn anything, in a short time, but there's hardly a point in putting in the effort into the new hotness when it'll be passé by the time you're comfortable with it.

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#136

Post by CuriouslyC »

slindsey wrote: post #132
CuriouslyC wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest, if I were looking at a resume that reads like I expect yours would, I would probably pass on it unless I was looking for an architect/principal software engineer, and in that case I would need to see interesting technical accomplishments and leadership experience as well. Less experienced developers are cheaper, probably have a more current education, and are less set in their ways (e.i. more trainable)…

It's difficult to codify "career advancement". What does it mean? To whom? I've been a "programmer", "analyst", "database administrator", "developer", "consultant", and "manager". What order shows advancement?

Well, it is a bit of a red flag if you list them in non-chronological order (unless you wrote a functional resume that was tailored specifically to the requirements for my position, in which case you get bonus points).

You should be able to show career advancement via the achievements you list for each position. There should generally be a trend towards increasing responsibility and successively more impressive feats at each stage. Some lateral movement is fine, but if that's all you've got it suggests that you lack focus/get bored easily.

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#137

Post by tremendo »

kamaal wrote: post #52
outside1234 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? What is the logic behind that? You will have 30 years more experience than him.

And less 30 years worth energy, enthusiasm and liabilities. What is knowledge worth in the era where any algorithm can be looked up in a google search. Young people work for longer hours, don't fall sick often, come in on weekends and are more productive.

Well there you have it, ageism manifest. Why not go with the younger which can be exploited so much more easily!? We can burn their candles, pay them peanuts, have them come up with half-assed solutions copy-pasted from stack overflow, and laugh all the way to the bank!

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#138

Post by spitfire »

Swizec wrote: post #20
kasey_junk wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So just stay relevant? The point of age bias isn't bias against people without relevant skills, its an actual bias against person of certain ages. Our industry is ripe with stories of folks with extremely relevant skill sets not getting jobs after a certain age (50 seems to be common). There is some (unintentional I'm sure) age bias even in the response of "stay relevant" as if the implication is that older devs do…

> There is some (unintentional I'm sure) age bias even in the response of "stay relevant" as if the implication is that older devs don't do that as a matter of course while younger ones do. Maybe it's bias. But I know for myself that the older I get, the less time I have to spend on staying relevant. Mobile revolution? Never bothered to learn. Super fancy new JavaScript? Took me years to start looking into. Go? Ugh,…

Champing at the bit.

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#139

Post by dasil003 »

Futurebot wrote: post #126
dasil003 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At 37 I'm somewhere in the middle and I think there are two major factors at play in terms of SV age bias. The first is a proliferation of young founders who have no experience and thus no frame of reference to evaluate older developers, so they just pattern match on the new tech they are familiar with. Nothing really to be done about that since convincing twentysomethings (particularly SV funded ones) of their hubri…

They may very well be at a competitive disadvantage, but unless something magical happens to communicate to someone that fact as "having contributed to failure" or "at the margin, caused the failure", that disadvantage doesn't translate into anything that helps either discriminated against individuals, nor does it help improve cultures that allow or encourage discrimination. The individual or even group decision-maki…

You raise a very good point. To be clear, I don't think the problem will solve itself, the key bit is awareness of the problem, which gives the necessary information for the market to correct itself, at least partially.

Here's how I think this could possibly play out: Facebook and Google start paying 21-year-old kids $200k directly out of school, startups start paying ridiculous unsustainable salaries based on VC salaries. Savvy founders and hiring managers at other companies realize they can't economically compete for 25-year-old golden boy talent and start looking at other demographics to find the talent. Over time those savvy companies will thrive while the others are crushed by having to pay for inferior talent at inflated prices with bubble-time VC funds.

Obviously this only works if people realize that older and minority talent is getting unduly passed over. And also I don't know how strong this effect will be or whether the existing tidal wave of bias is too overwhelming for such an anti-trend to even register in the marketplace. Whether or not this would even constitute justice goes beyond my thesis (I believe in ethical business, but justice is quite a tall order). Nevertheless, as a hiring manager, I see any market bias that I am aware of as a competitive advantage to me, and I'm convinced that effect is real no matter how small.

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#140

Post by Futurebot »

dasil003 wrote: post #139
Futurebot wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They may very well be at a competitive disadvantage, but unless something magical happens to communicate to someone that fact as "having contributed to failure" or "at the margin, caused the failure", that disadvantage doesn't translate into anything that helps either discriminated against individuals, nor does it help improve cultures that allow or encourage discrimination. The individual or even group decision-maki…

You raise a very good point. To be clear, I don't think the problem will solve itself, the key bit is awareness of the problem, which gives the necessary information for the market to correct itself, at least partially. Here's how I think this could possibly play out: Facebook and Google start paying 21-year-old kids $200k directly out of school, startups start paying ridiculous unsustainable salaries based on VC sal…

Yes, individual companies can use some of this type of information to hire high-quality underrated/underutilized potential employees; older people, people with no degree, people from non-elite schools, etc. that get passed over may make fantastic hires that others miss. There's definitely room for "moneyballing", and savvy companies would be wise to attempt to use this in their hiring calculus.

Broad correction, though, seems unlikely to happen, whether attempts are done via the market or via legislation.

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