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Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

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101–110 of 153 posts

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#101
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And less 30 years worth energy, enthusiasm and liabilities. What is knowledge worth in the era where any algorithm can be looked up in a google search. Young people work for longer hours, don't fall sick often, come in on weekends and are more productive.

and how do you know =which= algorithm to look up in google for your particular requirements? knowledge is not only knowing where the hammer is, knowledge is also knowing when a screwdriver would be more appropriate.

Well that is easy too. Even if you have cursory information about a problem stating that in terms in which you could get an answer is very easy these days.

You seem to be describing a situation which existed two decades back where a person's only portal to information was a library.

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#102
post #94
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks! And I think your point is pretty well made. Because of how attitudes towards job change have developed over time from being negatively labeled a 'job hopper' to now having it accepted (and somewhat expected), older devs tend to have longer tenures in one place. Now that even the youngest of the first dotcom engineers are probably hitting their 40s, it will be interesting to see whether ageism will still be a…

I've definitely seen the effect of that "job hopper" mentality - I left my first development job ca. 2010 after a year and a half. My parents were terrified I'd never find another job because it'd look bad not having been there for "4 or 5 years at least." Since, I've had more than one person surprised that I've stayed at places longer than 2 years.

Much of the career advice I provide serves to counteract poor advice given by parents or university career counselors. Even most general career advice doesn't apply to the industry.

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#103
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I spend time on the weekends doing projects in new technologies. Is that weekends are for? I do that too but do wonder at times...

My parents are doctors. They are in their 60s. And guess what: they still spend evenings and weekends reading medical journals, attending conferences (around the globe) and doing whatever else is necessary to keep up with new developments in their specialties. That's just what it takes to remain relevant in fast-moving fields. I think what software developers need is some perspective. We aren't the only ones who have…

slacker hat: perspective is one of those words they use when they want something from you, like "duty" or "contribute". Doctors get so much more job security, prestige, and straight-up money than software developers. By the time we're in our 60s, many of our classmates who went into medicine will be living in neighborhoods and moving in social circles that are completely inaccessible to us.

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#104
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of the reasons I spend time on the weekends doing projects in new technologies. I can put Rails, React, Angular, Swift, etc. on my resume and answer questions about them (and point to projects I've used them on). I see keeping up with new technologies as an important part of my career development. If someone is truly biased against me because of my age, there's not much I can do about that. But I definite…

> I spend time on the weekends doing projects in new technologies. Is that weekends are for? I do that too but do wonder at times...

> Is that weekends are for? I do that too but do wonder at times...

They are for doing what you want to do. Sometimes I code all weekend for fun, or go in the boat or sleep or play Diablo all day. But the reason why many people on this site are good at what they do is because they love doing it. Even if I was not paid to code, I would still immerse myself in coding (and IT in general). I am fortunate enough to love doing something that also can pay well.

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#105
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right this would be solved if we had babies in nursing homes and waited until someone was 80 to teach them calculus!

As an aside, I think that age-segregation in schooling results in behaviour problems. Teenagers want to take their behavioural cues from older children and young adults, but they simply don't have enough interaction with them so instead take their cues from what they believe to be true via mass media. Imagine how many fewer 15 year olds would ask "what can I do with calculus" if they had to brush shoulders with 20 ye…

I totally agree with this. When I was young I lived in a very rural area and went to a school with only 20 children. It went from ages 5 to around 10. There was only one teacher and one classroom.

I think a huge part of the advantage of a school like that is that the teacher from the very beginning is in the mindset that every child is going to be at a different stage and needs to be catered to individually. All the children were taught at their own pace and at their own level of ability.

By the time I left that school I was happily doing work that was designed for children 2-3 years older at a regular school. I also had not had the drive to self-learn knocked out of me as seems to be common with kids from regular schools.

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#106

I am in my mid-60s and I don't feel like I have suffered any age bias either at large companies like Google or small startups I have helped. I sort of grew up with computers. My older brother and I got a mini version of a mechanical difference engine when I was a kid. When I was about 11 my Dad got me occasional use of a time sharing system, so that planted some desire in my brain for using computers. In high school…

How much of your career was contracting, if any? Were you an employee of Google? I have heard Google is probably the best of the SV tech giants when it comes to age discrimination, FWIW. I think contracting is a lot different and in that case more experienced consultants are preferred over younger ones where as it is the opposite when it comes to permanent employment. The thing I don't agree with is that we should be…

re: "The thing I don't agree with is that we should be expected to keep learning." I believe that in many fields it is important to keep learning, not just in software development. 20 years ago one of the brightest developers I knew made the case that object oriented programming was the 'final paradigm' and that we didn't need any other model for organizing code and data. Now, I would be tempted to say that functional programming is the final paradigm, except I know better than to make predictions.

I absolutely agree with you that learning many frameworks is probably not a good use of our time. "Just in time learning" of frameworks is usually good enough but knowing a few programming languages, and occasionally learning a new one makes sense.

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#107
As someone who works at OSU I can confirm that this place is exceptionally backwards, and change can bring people to tears. Due to the severely broken HR system here young people generally leave within 2-5 years, and the older folks are almost always just waiting out the clock on their retirement.

Age discrimination might be a serious problem elsewhere, but with OSU's chronic issues I'd be hard pressed to believe these people were discriminated against.

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of the reasons I spend time on the weekends doing projects in new technologies. I can put Rails, React, Angular, Swift, etc. on my resume and answer questions about them (and point to projects I've used them on). I see keeping up with new technologies as an important part of my career development. If someone is truly biased against me because of my age, there's not much I can do about that. But I definite…

Also, to be clear. I think that having many years of experience, hard-won judgement, really strong foundations, and experience with a variety of technologies (even if they aren't the newest) SHOULD be enough to be seriously considered for a job. Someone who has been in the industry for 20 years and knows a bunch of languages and frameworks is most likely going to be able to pick up a new one quickly. And he or she wi…

At 37 I'm somewhere in the middle and I think there are two major factors at play in terms of SV age bias.

The first is a proliferation of young founders who have no experience and thus no frame of reference to evaluate older developers, so they just pattern match on the new tech they are familiar with. Nothing really to be done about that since convincing twentysomethings (particularly SV funded ones) of their hubris is a sisyphean task, and in any case it leaves talent on the table for those of us who actually know the value of a dollar.

The second, more troubling factor is founders who actually understand the value of experience, but prefer to take advantage of ambitious kids who are willing to work extreme hours for little equity and less salary. All else being equal, it's easier to find strong talent that isn't aware of (or bad at negotiating) their own value at a young age compared to when they get old and jaded.

As slimy as that is, I think it's a somewhat self-correcting problem in that good programmers are still too thin on the ground and startups who pass over old or minority candidates that are actually good will be at a competitive disadvantage. There is certainly a flood of young people going into technology via bootcamps or other means, but my experience so far is that there is a natural and unquantifiable talent component to being a good programmer which can not be solved by education. I firmly believe anyone can learn to program, but only a minority can ever learn to program well. At the moment, I interpret having learned to program before "startups" became a career move as a strong positive signal; chalk one up for the olds!

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#109
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of the reasons I spend time on the weekends doing projects in new technologies. I can put Rails, React, Angular, Swift, etc. on my resume and answer questions about them (and point to projects I've used them on). I see keeping up with new technologies as an important part of my career development. If someone is truly biased against me because of my age, there's not much I can do about that. But I definite…

> I spend time on the weekends doing projects in new technologies. Is that weekends are for? I do that too but do wonder at times...

Definitely not what weekends are for. I've looking over the past 5 years of my life and it fills me with regret at not having a lot of new experiences. I love coding but I'm going to disengage for a bit and find new hobbies. I don't want the highlight of the next 5 years of my life to be Github commits.

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not paid by the hour. I'm paid to deliver. This is true for most developers - typically we take a salary in return for getting stuff done. Now if you want to lawyer up and demand X hours, $Y pay, rigid adherence to various requirements, etc, that's great for you. But if people are not willing to pay you as much due to the fact that those rigid requirements are a pain, you aren't being discriminated against due to…

> I'm not paid by the hour. I'm paid to deliver. This is true for most developers - typically we take a salary in return for getting stuff done. If you're a contractor, yes. If you're an employee, no, not at all. > Needless to say I'm opposed to your desire for the government to hobble your competition. Government exists to protect its citizens above profits. Are you insinuating that labor laws should not be enforced…

Salaried employees are not paid by the hour. They are paid by the week, regardless of how much work they've done. I'm not insinuating anything, I'm explicitly stating that this type of work agreement should not be banned.

If you don't like it, demand something hourly. Just don't prevent me from working however I see fit.

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