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Alleged Assassins Caught on Dubai Surveillance Tape

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Re: Alleged Assassins Caught on Dubai Surveillance Tape

#21

Post by cookiecaper »

electromagnetic wrote: post #3

Of the two methods currently being used to deal with the militant Islamic fanatics, the 'War On Terror' has only really achieved in causing mass terror amongst our own people and imprison hundreds of innocent people because our government's criteria for 'wrong place and wrong time' were basically Afghanistan and post-invasion. However the allegedly Israeli approach causes virtually no terror to our own people (in fac…

Israel is interested in self-preservation, the United States is interested in imperialism. This is the root difference in the strategies; we stay in Iraq or Afghanistan because our leaders want to establish friendly governments there. If we left, the people would reject the sham governments we've installed and resort back to something that provides their needs, fundamentally, stability and security.

It's a privilege and a responsibility to live under what's considered a "free" government, and not everyone can handle that. You can't just waltz in and apply it universally across the globe and expect it to work, especially if the people of these other countries feel it was forced upon them. In these cases, there is too much contention and tribalism among the groups in the constituted nations to allow for a peaceful, useful democratic co-existence, which is one of the main reasons these governments do not form spontaneously in the area. The people there just can't handle that kind of system as it is, whatever your opinion on that system is, either for unwillingness, resentment, or inability, and forcing it only makes the problem worse.

You can't take a newborn and try to force it to walk. All that will do is harm the baby physically and harm your relationship psychologically. The capacity just isn't there. Even if you spend lots of money on harnesses and things that keep the baby in a bipedal stance, and cuffs and strings to lift his legs, it's not the same thing, and doing this only stands to worsen the situation overall. If you allow the child to develop these capacities naturally in his own time, everything is good and happy.

We have to allow the natural growth of these things. Our puppet governments don't work because the people don't accept them, and they especially will resent anyone who invades their territory to impose a "better way" on them. How would the US feel if China invaded and said, "This is for your own good, so that you can learn the glories of Communism, so that you are free from your oppressive corporatist leaders."?

Do you think, even if China is right there, any American will accept that? We would vow ourselves to destroy the invaders. Those in the Middle East do likewise.

Re: Alleged Assassins Caught on Dubai Surveillance Tape

#22

Post by yannis »

tonystubblebine wrote: post #10
utku_karatas2 wrote: post #9

Flagged. What's this Mossad PR stunt doing on HN?

I'm hoping for someone to discuss the implications as they relate to technology, PR, security, and privacy. What technology is necessary to gather that much video so quickly? Is that video feeding into a central hub? This is Dubai, a relatively tiny country. Did they build this technology themselves or did they license it. PR. What's to gain from releasing this? It's fascinating but long. It's definitely not put toge…

What technology is necessary to gather that much video so quickly? Is that video feeding into a central hub? This is Dubai, a relatively tiny country. Did they build this technology themselves or did they license it.

The technology is CCTV http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed-circuit_television. It is imported from all over the place and is probably not feeding into a central hub. In most countries UAE included it is found in all hotels, airports and Shopping Centers. The assassins for sure knew about it but because of their modus operandi did not worry about it. If you notice the end of the video says the hotel staff opened the room 17 hours later and that the latch was locked from the inside. They made the murder appear as a heart attack (other reports at the time) reported it as electrocution - probably killed him by inducing a heart attack via electrocution.

The team scattered to different places and all the names and nationalities mentioned are probably false. They also probably had multiple passports and on leaving Dubai appeared in another country with a different name.

Re: Alleged Assassins Caught on Dubai Surveillance Tape

#23

Post by anamax »

rudyfink wrote: post #2

The amount of effort that would need to go into creating that video and the facts that the article asserts is just impressive: -figuring out the group of people -how everyone entered the country -all of their phone communication while they were in the country, including finding out their numbers -how they spent money inside the country -their motions inside the country -where they went after they left the country

It's not that impressive if the tapers knew where the suspects were going before hand.

Re: Alleged Assassins Caught on Dubai Surveillance Tape

#24

Post by utku_karatas2 »

InclinedPlane wrote: post #18
utku_karatas2 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cannot make myself believe world's and especially mid-east's most feared inteligence service making mistakes in this level (Security cams ha? Who knew!). This case is more like a message telling "we come, we find, we kill your leader wherever he is and btw don't forget to comment us on Youtube". That's why I called it a stunt.

Did it not enter your mind that this video comes from Dubai security services and not Israel? The real question is the motivation of Dubai in making and releasing this video. I highly doubt that it's as an advertisement for the mossad (even if it may end up coming off as such).

Somehow "Dubai security services" sounds like a joke instead of a beacon of Arabic intelligence to this mid-eastern ears of mine. Thus I think this whole thing ended up as a Best of Mossad episode.

Re: Alleged Assassins Caught on Dubai Surveillance Tape

#25

Post by pieceofpeace »

rudyfink wrote: post #2

The amount of effort that would need to go into creating that video and the facts that the article asserts is just impressive: -figuring out the group of people -how everyone entered the country -all of their phone communication while they were in the country, including finding out their numbers -how they spent money inside the country -their motions inside the country -where they went after they left the country

The first lead probably came from the hotel cams.

  When al-Mabhouh arrives at his hotel around 3 p.m. on the 
  19th, the footage captures two of the suspects, dressed in 
  tennis gear, getting into the same elevator with him to 
  follow him to his hotel room. The two suspects later 
  checked into the room across the hall from him

Re: Alleged Assassins Caught on Dubai Surveillance Tape

#26

Post by jacquesm »

cookiecaper wrote: post #21
electromagnetic wrote: post #3

Of the two methods currently being used to deal with the militant Islamic fanatics, the 'War On Terror' has only really achieved in causing mass terror amongst our own people and imprison hundreds of innocent people because our government's criteria for 'wrong place and wrong time' were basically Afghanistan and post-invasion. However the allegedly Israeli approach causes virtually no terror to our own people (in fac…

Israel is interested in self-preservation, the United States is interested in imperialism. This is the root difference in the strategies; we stay in Iraq or Afghanistan because our leaders want to establish friendly governments there. If we left, the people would reject the sham governments we've installed and resort back to something that provides their needs, fundamentally, stability and security. It's a privilege…

The only alternative to 'sham' governments imposed from outside are 'strong men', Saddam, for all his shortcomings functioned remarkably well in that role as did for instance Tito in former Yugoslavia.

Tribal friction needs an equally strong force to overcome it if a country is not to explode into its constituent parts.

So if you remove the strong man once he's established terrible stuff can happen, sometimes worse than what the strong man himself did. (Again, for instance Yugoslavia was definitely not the best country in the world to live in under Tito, but it was a lot better than living in a civil war).

Re: Alleged Assassins Caught on Dubai Surveillance Tape

#27

Post by jacquesm »

zzleeper wrote: post #8
electromagnetic wrote: post #3

Of the two methods currently being used to deal with the militant Islamic fanatics, the 'War On Terror' has only really achieved in causing mass terror amongst our own people and imprison hundreds of innocent people because our government's criteria for 'wrong place and wrong time' were basically Afghanistan and post-invasion. However the allegedly Israeli approach causes virtually no terror to our own people (in fac…

The thing is who decides who gets killed and who not. You could argue that Bush caused the massacre of thousands of Iraqis, or something similar for past Israeli leaders. Does that mean that we can assassinate them? W/out even a fair trial? Once you go through that path, things get scaringly fuzzy. It reminds me of the idea -popular in Latin America- that there are bad dictators and good dictators (pro markets, etc.)…

The US has in the past effected regime change through assassination, for instance against Fidel Castro.

Re: Alleged Assassins Caught on Dubai Surveillance Tape

#28

Post by Flemlord »

tsally wrote: post #20
electromagnetic wrote: post #3

Of the two methods currently being used to deal with the militant Islamic fanatics, the 'War On Terror' has only really achieved in causing mass terror amongst our own people and imprison hundreds of innocent people because our government's criteria for 'wrong place and wrong time' were basically Afghanistan and post-invasion. However the allegedly Israeli approach causes virtually no terror to our own people (in fac…

A fair number of innocents get caught in the crosshairs of the Israel. A targeted assassination by Mossad killed the wrong man [1], Palestinian civilians have been used as human shields [2], Amnesty International found that Israeli military checkpoints are a "key cause of high rates of unemployment and poverty" among the Palestinians [3], and a UN report concluded that "there was strong evidence to establish that num…

Not to justify either method, but that's a few orders of magnitude away from the "war on terror" casualties.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War

Re: Alleged Assassins Caught on Dubai Surveillance Tape

#29

Post by tsally »

Flemlord wrote: post #28
tsally wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A fair number of innocents get caught in the crosshairs of the Israel. A targeted assassination by Mossad killed the wrong man [1], Palestinian civilians have been used as human shields [2], Amnesty International found that Israeli military checkpoints are a "key cause of high rates of unemployment and poverty" among the Palestinians [3], and a UN report concluded that "there was strong evidence to establish that num…

Not to justify either method, but that's a few orders of magnitude away from the "war on terror" casualties. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War

True, but the scale of the war on terror (based on populations of the countries involved) is a few orders of magnitude larger than the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. If you adjust the number of casualties for population, the two numbers become similar.

Of course, this comparison is still a naive one, but it's a lot closer to reality than comparing the two conflicts by the raw number of casualties only.

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