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U.S. Says It May Not Need Apple’s Help to Unlock iPhone

nytimes.com

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Re: U.S. Says It May Not Need Apple’s Help to Unlock iPhone

#41

Post by ethanbond »

r00fus wrote: post #37
nostromo wrote: post #27

I suspect that the intelligence and law enforcement communities are afraid that if this case goes to the Supreme Court the All Writs Act may be scaled back or ruled unconstitutional. The All Writs Act goes back to 1789 and is used for all sorts of things, like wire tapping, obtaining call and ISP records, etc., and now trying to force Apple to make malware for their own phone. It's definitely a risk for the FBI to fi…

So why did they push it so far? Was it really just a game of chicken where the FBI wanted to stare down Apple?

I wouldn't be surprised. The fact that we don't hear about companies standing up like this every couple of weeks might imply that the standard response is compliance.

Re: U.S. Says It May Not Need Apple’s Help to Unlock iPhone

#42

Post by wildmusings »

jacquesm wrote: post #38
wildmusings wrote: post #32

There's a lot of cynicism in this thread. Would you prefer that they try to force Apple's hand anyway, even though they might have found another way that makes the issue moot?

> Would you prefer that they try to force Apple's hand anyway, even though they might have found another way that makes the issue moot? Yes, very much so. That way we can put this behind us rather than to wait for the inevitable re-run with conditions carefully arranged to be more favorable in order to set precedent.

Their legal reasoning heavily relies on Apple being the only party capable of assisting with unlocking the phone. They are talking about compelling someone, so if there's a possibility that it's not necessary, they have a duty to find out. Also, US courts don't rule on abstract ideas or hypothetical cases. No "case or controversy", no judicial standing. If the FBI can unlock the device without compelling Apple, there's no controversy since the FBI agrees Apple wouldn't be required to help in that case.

Re: U.S. Says It May Not Need Apple’s Help to Unlock iPhone

#43

Post by Avenger42 »

Johnny555 wrote: post #26
valine wrote: post #18

So basically they're saying, "This isn't going according to plan. Let's wait for another opportunity and try again."

And lets screw over Apple by claiming that we can crack the phone after Apple claims that no one can. We'll never have to prove it, so we win, Apple loses.

I don't think Apple has claimed no one can crack the phone. That's not what this case was about.

Re: U.S. Says It May Not Need Apple’s Help to Unlock iPhone

#44

Post by jsolson »

enraged_camel wrote: post #34
Johnny555 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And lets screw over Apple by claiming that we can crack the phone after Apple claims that no one can. We'll never have to prove it, so we win, Apple loses.

I don't think anyone (who matters) is particularly inclined to trust the government over Apple, though.

Yeah, but, they're actually telling the truth here, right?

The iPhone 5C has an unsecured AHB or AXI bus. You can inject arbitrary code via DMA and trigger and interrupt to cause it to run. This went away with TrustZone (present in ARMs with a secure enclave including later iPhones).

Re: U.S. Says It May Not Need Apple’s Help to Unlock iPhone

#45

Post by ChuckMcM »

I suspect this is a "Strategic Retreat" on the Justice department. The ability to reflash the phone and avoid triggering the unlock erase was a pretty obvious workaround.

So after investing a lot of time and money in trying to get case law to expand the DoJ's power over corporations to conscript them into the War on the 4th Amendment, it become possible that they would see a judgement against them (especially if the Supreme court becomes more liberal with the next appointment).

So I suspect the risk/reward outcomes of pushing this to a conclusion flip flopped into more risk than reward and someone fairly high up said, "Ok kill this whole effort before it makes things worse than they are."

Just an opinion of course but I think it fits the observed actions.

Re: U.S. Says It May Not Need Apple’s Help to Unlock iPhone

#46

Post by __jal »

wildmusings wrote: post #32

There's a lot of cynicism in this thread. Would you prefer that they try to force Apple's hand anyway, even though they might have found another way that makes the issue moot?

Let's try that the other way around.

What statements can you point to that lead to the conclusion that the FBI is acting in good faith?

Re: U.S. Says It May Not Need Apple’s Help to Unlock iPhone

#47

Post by BWStearns »

nostromo wrote: post #27

I suspect that the intelligence and law enforcement communities are afraid that if this case goes to the Supreme Court the All Writs Act may be scaled back or ruled unconstitutional. The All Writs Act goes back to 1789 and is used for all sorts of things, like wire tapping, obtaining call and ISP records, etc., and now trying to force Apple to make malware for their own phone. It's definitely a risk for the FBI to fi…

> All Writs Act may be scaled back or ruled unconstitutional

Totally agree with the broader point (I think they're scared of a restrictive precedent), but I don't think a law that's been on the books for two hundred plus years is going to be out and out declared unconstitutional. It's extremely broad in the number of domains of application but that doesn't necessarily mean that it grants overly broad power.

Re: U.S. Says It May Not Need Apple’s Help to Unlock iPhone

#48

Post by jonknee »

r00fus wrote: post #39
georgespencer wrote: post #3

One of three things is true: 1. The FBI is lying to save face, 2. Someone -- but probably needs to be some people -- from Apple is willing to help them, 3. There is an undisclosed vulnerability in iOS which Apple is unaware of. I find it really hard to believe that someone would disclose a zero day exploit to the FBI without charging significant $ for it. Am I missing something obvious?

4. Someone from NSA with easy access to the serious tools needed to decap the chip - became available (remember, this is a 5C, so no secure enclave).

That's almost certainly not it because it destroys the chip in the process and if the key isn't recovered the data is forever locked (even with Apple's best assistance).

> “Testing is required to determine whether it is a viable method that will not compromise data on Farook’s iPhone,”

Re: U.S. Says It May Not Need Apple’s Help to Unlock iPhone

#49

Post by jsolson »

georgespencer wrote: post #3

One of three things is true: 1. The FBI is lying to save face, 2. Someone -- but probably needs to be some people -- from Apple is willing to help them, 3. There is an undisclosed vulnerability in iOS which Apple is unaware of. I find it really hard to believe that someone would disclose a zero day exploit to the FBI without charging significant $ for it. Am I missing something obvious?

Sure, there's an extremely well known vulnerability in the iPhone 5C hardware.

Lacking the features introduced in later ARM releases it has an unsecured AHB or AXI bus allowing any device that can connect to perform arbitrary DMA (which can in turn allow arbitrary code execution).

It would require a certain degree of technical sophistication to execute that attack, but the resources required would be well within the reach of a state-level investigative service.

Re: U.S. Says It May Not Need Apple’s Help to Unlock iPhone

#50

Post by WalterSear »

tptacek wrote: post #13
Nadya wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Am I missing something obvious? John McAfee did promise to do it for free. /½ s The guy is eccentric but I don't think he's an idiot and I do think he is likely talented, or at least rich enough to hire those who are. That being said - he admits he was full of shit [0] and then claims that he has a proper method that isn't full of shit but which he didn't want to disclose. Chances are he's probably full of shit on t…

He is an eccentric idiot. I am just enough not of an idiot not to bet my shoe for dinner that he had nothing to do with this, but I'm really close. If I had smaller feet, I'd take that bet.

I'm a size 8 and willing to let you eat one from my pair of favourite shoes, if that is more amenable.

But of course, only if The Most Interesting Douchebag In the World™ is even remotely involved.

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