An AI with human-like abilities (so no infinite APM for instance) would be great for balance problems in competitive video games. Just run the AI a certain number of times, and if some race or unit always wins the game, there's definitely a problem.
DeepMind Challenges for StarCraft
91–100 of 137 posts
Re: DeepMind Challenges for StarCraft
#92Starcraft is a game that is played with mouse and keyboard (or game controller on console). I think in order to say an AI has beat a human, it should have to use the same interface that a human uses. That's part of the definition of the game. In Go, anyone can place a stone as well as anyone else, it's deciding where to place a stone that's the game. In Starcraft, not everyone can control the interface to the game eq…
BW has more than enough players to challenge the AI, there's still plenty of players like Bisu, Flash, Effort, NaDa, etc. There's going to be multiple BW tournaments broadcast this year too. I think there's no need to make it use a keyboard/mouse, you should just add in some human like constraints that are assumed in the game (some limit on APM, some delay between moving the screen and being able to take an action/ob…
Another thing favouring sc2 is - micro is less important in sc2 than in sc1 (bw).
Still, if there's no api then there's no point complaining.
Re: DeepMind Challenges for StarCraft
#93I'm rather suprised there are no player beating ais for starcraft. i dont think it should be very hard as decisions need to be made very quickly in this game and humans are bound to make more than a few mistakes. but perhaps i'm underestimating the problem. it may have something to do with the limitations of the api though.
Re: DeepMind Challenges for StarCraft
#94Earlier quoted context omitted.
You don't think it'd be interesting to take a player who's already one of the top players, and measure the marginal gains of them doing their own macro+micro, vs. just doing micro and leaving macro to the AI?
We can see that now, with the new Archon mode, which allows two players to control the units together.
I haven't been following SC2 since HOTS, are they really still trying to achieve feature parity with Brood War?
Re: DeepMind Challenges for StarCraft
#95Starcraft is a game that is played with mouse and keyboard (or game controller on console). I think in order to say an AI has beat a human, it should have to use the same interface that a human uses. That's part of the definition of the game. In Go, anyone can place a stone as well as anyone else, it's deciding where to place a stone that's the game. In Starcraft, not everyone can control the interface to the game eq…
From the 2015 AIIDE Starcraft AI competition report[0]. > ""Why not StarCraft 2?" > This is the question we always get asked when we tell people we are doing a BroodWar AI competition. This competition relies completely on BWAPI as a programming interface to BroodWar. BWAPI was created by reverse engineering BroodWar and relies on reading and writing to the program memory space of BroodWar in order to read data and i…
Is it problematic to capture screen and generate mouse/keyboard input?
In that way there would be no need of any privileged API... and it would be more natural (i.e. interacting with the real way, instead of its abstracted version).
Re: DeepMind Challenges for StarCraft
#96Starcraft is a game that is played with mouse and keyboard (or game controller on console). I think in order to say an AI has beat a human, it should have to use the same interface that a human uses. That's part of the definition of the game. In Go, anyone can place a stone as well as anyone else, it's deciding where to place a stone that's the game. In Starcraft, not everyone can control the interface to the game eq…
Agreed. The DeepMind team have already done this with other Atari games: https://youtu.be/08Cl7ii6viY?t=11m35s (Oct 2015) "The system only gets raw pixels as input." The results were pretty great, so it would be fascinating to see this work with Matt's version of SC2 as mentioned elsewhere in this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11326119
Raw pixels. And the score. The score was separate, or rather a signal representing increased score. Relevant quote from the paper:
"The emulator’s internal state is not observed by the agent; instead it observes an image xt ∈ Rd from the emulator, which is a vector of raw pixel values representing the current screen. In addition it receives a reward rt representing the change in game score."
The paper: http://arxiv.org/abs/1312.5602
Re: DeepMind Challenges for StarCraft
#97Earlier quoted context omitted.
Agreed. The DeepMind team have already done this with other Atari games: https://youtu.be/08Cl7ii6viY?t=11m35s (Oct 2015) "The system only gets raw pixels as input." The results were pretty great, so it would be fascinating to see this work with Matt's version of SC2 as mentioned elsewhere in this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11326119
Raw pixels. And the score. The score was separate, or rather a signal representing increased score. Relevant quote from the paper: "The emulator’s internal state is not observed by the agent; instead it observes an image xt ∈ Rd from the emulator, which is a vector of raw pixel values representing the current screen. In addition it receives a reward rt representing the change in game score." The paper: http://arxiv.o…
It would be great if it could also learn to tell if it was doing fine.
Re: DeepMind Challenges for StarCraft
#98Earlier quoted context omitted.
IMO the smaller action space/better defined win conditions is outweighed by the greater playstyle diversity: SC has 3 races while League and Dota have 100+ champions to understand the interactions with. How is an AI supposed to know that Tryndamere's ult has a 0.5 second cast time, but can't be interrupted by any CC? Personally, I think (all else being equal) Dota might be an easier starting point than League because…
This is incorrect as Starcraft has a much larger playstyle diversity than League. Every league game follows the same structure: with very high probability, one player will be top, one middle, and two bottom, with one jungler. Teams will farm with occasional gank attempts until the midgame, where there is a slow transition from farming to objective taking and teamfighting. This is relatively formulaic and easy to lear…
> Every league game follows the same structure: with very high probability, one player will be top, one middle, and two bottom, with one jungler.
The prevalence of lane swaps (2 go top, 1 goes bottom) in competitive is one major counterexample. In fact, these often turn into having 3 or 4 people in one lane at the start of the game, forcing a fast push strategy.
> Teams will farm with occasional gank attempts until the midgame, where there is a slow transition from farming to objective taking and teamfighting.
Stereotypical Chinese LoL matches are nearly all teamfights, for better or for worse. Regardless, laning and midgame is where I think you should consider my point of champion diversity as well. Here, mistakes can be more readily mechanically exploited (late game, mistakes are punished strategically), e.g. if a laner is far from baron without TP, exploiting a 5v4 fight is a strategic decision, whereas missing certain skills early on in certain matchups means a severely negative outcome if the opposite laner has the mechanics, e.g. no flash and Q on CD as Lux means any Morgana can flash ult for guaranteed kill. These have a bigger impact than racial considerations and probably make up for map considerations (idk)
The script user example is one of mechanics: top players still win against those with pixel perfect scripted mechanics. This is despite having some scripters having 'game strategy competency' (that might be a real thing, but I interpret it as a player having real game knowledge).
IMO the biggest challenge to a human player playing against a team of 5 AI-controlled players is that of communication; perfect understanding of each others' intent is a far cry from the communication of even practiced teams.
Re: DeepMind Challenges for StarCraft
#99Does anybody else think teaching a rapidly evolving strong AI about how to be really good at war might be a bad thing?
It's unfortunately inevitable. We're making it in our own image, just like we made God back in the day.
Re: DeepMind Challenges for StarCraft
#100Earlier quoted context omitted.
From the 2015 AIIDE Starcraft AI competition report[0]. > ""Why not StarCraft 2?" > This is the question we always get asked when we tell people we are doing a BroodWar AI competition. This competition relies completely on BWAPI as a programming interface to BroodWar. BWAPI was created by reverse engineering BroodWar and relies on reading and writing to the program memory space of BroodWar in order to read data and i…
Is it problematic to capture screen and generate mouse/keyboard input? In that way there would be no need of any privileged API... and it would be more natural (i.e. interacting with the real way, instead of its abstracted version).
Indeed, DeepMind has already demonstrated mastering a game using only screen input and controller output, e.g., Breakout https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1eYniJ0Rnk