Id love to see the people behind healthcare.gov tell Apple employees that they were moving too slow.
Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist
321–330 of 376 posts
Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist
#322Earlier quoted context omitted.
At its core, the government can enforce arbitrary declarations because they have the ability to use force against those who don't comply - ie; they control the prisons, the police and the armies. "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun" - Mao Zedong
As Max Weber would say, the government has a monopoly on the legitimate use of physical violence.
That's not a very insightful definition because it pushes the question to what is "legitimate".
Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist
#323Earlier quoted context omitted.
You may enjoy This American Life's episode on "Take the Money and Run for Office" [1] > Dick Durbin: I think most Americans would be shocked-- not surprised, but shocked-- if they knew how much time a United States senator spends raising money. And how much time we spend talking about raising money, and thinking about raising money, and planning to raise money. And, you know, going off on little retreats and conjurin…
So is there a super PAC that supports the agenda of encryption as a right? If not, should we make one?
We are! Sort of. Not a money-raising PAC, but rather a campaign to educate people about encryption in ways that are understandable by non-techies. A few of us plan to make a website and a fun campaign name. If you're interested in being involved, send me an email at stillastudent on google's email service.
Or make your own campaign. The more, the merrier.
There is also the EFF, and an organization called Fight for the Future which is currently running a campaign called Save Security. I'm in touch with both about working together. Tech companies will also lobby for stuff themselves. I'm not sure whether the likes of Facebook, Google and Apple are coordinating on this issue yet or not.
My thought is to do this campaign at zero cost and on donated developer time. I don't plan to register as a 501(c)3 or take donations. I'm hoping Obama changes his mind and there is no need for a campaign. But, if that doesn't happen, I hope we can present the facts to non-techies and share some reasonable arguments techies can use when talking with friends or family, or when contacting representatives. I've read a lot of good arguments online. I think it's just a matter of putting them in one referable location, and making them relatable to non-techies.
Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist
#324Earlier quoted context omitted.
We don't live in a totalitarian society. We live in a society which is governed on the idea of the Rule of Law. Big difference.
Soviet Russia was "governed on the idea of the Rule of Law". North Korea is "governed on the idea of the Rule of Law". Germany and Italy were "governed on the idea of the Rule of Law" in the 30's. Franco's Spain was "governed on the idea of the Rule of Law". Shall I go on?
No they were not...none of the examples you gave were democratic Republics that were based on the Rule of Law, so I'm not sure what's to discuss here.
Comparing the US today with Soviet Russia under Stalin or NK under Kim is so ill-informed its impossible to process.
Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist
#325Earlier quoted context omitted.
I sure can, and fully expect it to eventually happen, unfortunately. The sad part is, As Tim Cook said, all this will do is push the bad guys to use an encryption app from somewhere else. I have a good deal of experience in the US criminal justice system, and the one thing everyone I've met and done time with inside the system, from bank robbers to drug dealers to murderers say is, in the end, "They (the courts and p…
Unless you can afford good lawyers to put on a good defense. Then you get a Netflix show.
Yes I will agree to that, no doubt, and its a very good point.
I was definitely talking at the Public Defender level.
Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist
#326Earlier quoted context omitted.
When has Lindsey Graham changed his mind? His Senate homepage still has this statement on it: ".@tim_cook Our nation is at war & this Iphone was used to kill Americans. Protect our homeland, not terrorists. Please cooperate with @FBI." https://twitter.com/GrahamBlog/status/700348813807063040 http://www.lgraham.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/
Around March 10 when he questioned Attorney General Loretta Lynch at a DOJ budget review hearing [1] The video is 6 minutes and worth watching. It sounds like he is still forming his whole opinion. He certainly has changed his view from his initial comments. He's now calling for the debate to be held in Congress via passage of new laws. [1] https://youtu.be/uk4hYAwCdhU?t=1m44s
Thank you for that, that is not something I was expecting to see.
Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist
#327Earlier quoted context omitted.
Soviet Russia was "governed on the idea of the Rule of Law". North Korea is "governed on the idea of the Rule of Law". Germany and Italy were "governed on the idea of the Rule of Law" in the 30's. Franco's Spain was "governed on the idea of the Rule of Law". Shall I go on?
No they were not...none of the examples you gave were democratic Republics that were based on the Rule of Law, so I'm not sure what's to discuss here. Comparing the US today with Soviet Russia under Stalin or NK under Kim is so ill-informed its impossible to process.
North Korea is known as "The Democratic People's Republic of Korea". All of the others listed self-identified as democratic nations in the respective periods I refer to. In the USSR, the Communist party was "elected" time and time again, in "democratic" elections. They had a "mandate from the people".
To completely disregard any comparison because "they're bad and we're good" is so dogmatic and jingoistic it's impossible to process.
Edit: And I see in a parallel comment you say re: the US justice system "They (the courts and prosecutors) Do What They Want"
Would you really quantify that as the rule of law, or as arbitrary rule?
Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist
#328Taking this further down the rabbit hole: Suppose that only about 5 people can do what the FBI wants done. Suppose all 5 refuse, to the point of quitting Apple. Does the FBI now compel them to return to Apple and write the software or go to jail? And what if one of those engineers says that he doesn't actually know how to do it; Apple only thought he could, but he actually can't. Now we get into territory of proving…
There's really no question here. If the engineers refuse to comply with the court order the court can hold them in contempt. This means possible fines or jail time.
This is old territory, really. Courts have been ordering people to do things under the All Writs Act (including skilled labor) since it was first enacted more than 200 years ago. (The government's brief has some examples, starting on page 17. http://www.wired.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/2016.03.10-1...)
If an employee claimed he or she did not have the skills to comply with he order then, yes, there could be some sort of hearing to determine whether this was true. But establishing the requisite level of competence probably would not be as hard as you think.
Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist
#329Earlier quoted context omitted.
Anybody who actually went to jail for conscientiously objecting to this would be making one of the smartest moves possible in their career. They'll go down in the history books, their jail time will be minimal, and they will be a celebrity / employable in the security community for decades.
History is written by the victors, and you assume that we will win. An equally likely outcome is that we lose, they end up known in the future in the same light as Guido Fawkes - you know, that guy who fought for freedom of religious association and an end to oppression based on your flavour of christianity some three hundred years ago, who we still get children to burn in effigy every year. Or more likely they're co…
Most of the world recognizes the Guy Fawkes mask as the symbol of Anonymous now.
In fact, I'd say the Nov. 5 plot immortalized his ideas and spread them far wider than their original audience and circumstance.
I'd say the gunpowder treason is far from being forgot.
Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist
#330Earlier quoted context omitted.
History is written by the victors, and you assume that we will win. An equally likely outcome is that we lose, they end up known in the future in the same light as Guido Fawkes - you know, that guy who fought for freedom of religious association and an end to oppression based on your flavour of christianity some three hundred years ago, who we still get children to burn in effigy every year. Or more likely they're co…
Most of the world recognizes the Guy Fawkes mask as the symbol of Anonymous now. In fact, I'd say the Nov. 5 plot immortalized his ideas and spread them far wider than their original audience and circumstance. I'd say the gunpowder treason is far from being forgot.
Ah, but do you remember "Burn him in a tub of tar, burn him like a blazing star, burn his body from his head, then we'll say ol' pope is dead, hurrah hurrah hurrah"?
Everything is viewed through the lens of relativism, of course, but history has repeatedly shown that great men are viewed as villains, villains as great men, and very little of what you "know" is in any way actual. This reality is as fabricated as a film.