Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#211

Post by gaur » Fri, Mar 18, 2016, 7:44 AM UTC

studentrob wrote: post #172

gaur wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this becomes a gigantic public debate where we scramble to enact legislation that removes this power from the government. No such thing will happen. The public will forget this ever happened, and politicians will do nothing to prevent the government from doing this again.

I don't plan to let that happen. Do you? I'll fight this as long as it's under discussion. Talk to your friends and family, contact your representatives and let them know you care. If we as technologists, the only ones who understand the tech side of things, are silent, then yes this defeatist attitude will win. We need not be silent.

> contact your representatives and let them know you care.

Unless you have a lot of money, your representatives don't care.

It seems like the only way to make progress is to support stronger encryption, with less of a possibility of engineering backdoors.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#212

Post by nickff » Fri, Mar 18, 2016, 7:56 AM UTC

gaur wrote: post #211

studentrob wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't plan to let that happen. Do you? I'll fight this as long as it's under discussion. Talk to your friends and family, contact your representatives and let them know you care. If we as technologists, the only ones who understand the tech side of things, are silent, then yes this defeatist attitude will win. We need not be silent.

> contact your representatives and let them know you care. Unless you have a lot of money, your representatives don't care. It seems like the only way to make progress is to support stronger encryption, with less of a possibility of engineering backdoors.

This is not true; there are any number of studies and interviews which have shown that elected representatives will only act in favor of donors if the voters are silent or supportive. No congressman or senator will ignore dozens of letters and phonecalls (, though there has been some debate as to the utility of e-mails).

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#213

Post by Intermernet » Fri, Mar 18, 2016, 8:00 AM UTC

studentrob wrote: post #172

gaur wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this becomes a gigantic public debate where we scramble to enact legislation that removes this power from the government. No such thing will happen. The public will forget this ever happened, and politicians will do nothing to prevent the government from doing this again.

I don't plan to let that happen. Do you? I'll fight this as long as it's under discussion. Talk to your friends and family, contact your representatives and let them know you care. If we as technologists, the only ones who understand the tech side of things, are silent, then yes this defeatist attitude will win. We need not be silent.

I hate to break this to you, but the majority of people no longer remember the name Snowden. Give it 6 months and this will be such old news that you'll sound like a nut trying to get the majority of people to care about it.

The window of opportunity is short, and closing every day.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#214

Post by SturgeonsLaw » Fri, Mar 18, 2016, 8:00 AM UTC

EGreg wrote: post #194

dolske wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The feds threatened Yahoo with a fine of $250,000/day, _doubling every week_. It doesn't take long for that to become astronomical. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2014/09/15...

How does the government merely name a number out of thin air and the company now has to pay it? Can the government just declare the moon to be their property tomorrow? How would they enforce the delivery of these funds?

At its core, the government can enforce arbitrary declarations because they have the ability to use force against those who don't comply - ie; they control the prisons, the police and the armies.

"Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun" - Mao Zedong

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#215

Post by dagw » Fri, Mar 18, 2016, 8:04 AM UTC

kabdib wrote: post #6

giancarlostoro wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the engineers got fired or quit their jobs what could be done then I wonder?

Apple HR to security engineer: "You're fired! The color of your hair is all wrong!" (Yes, you can do this in California) Security engineer: "Meep?" HR: "That's right. Oh, and here, since you were such a great employee (up until we noticed your hair, anyway), have this extremely generous dollar amount severance package. Maybe if your hair is a different color someday we'll hire you back." : Apple to FBI: "We have no o…

Is the FBI then going to make a grab for source code, signing keys, and conscript people to do the work?

No, they're going to grab for source code, signing keys, and _pay_ people to do the work. There are lots of competent engineers out there, and not all of them share your politics (and some that do might be willing to reconsider it for a sufficiently large dollar amount).

Hell there are probably engineers working at the NSA right now who would easily do it as part of their day to day job if you just handed them the keys and source code.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#216

Post by studentrob » Fri, Mar 18, 2016, 8:05 AM UTC

polm23 wrote: post #168

studentrob wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear you. The point is we can stand up for it here and now. This case isn't over. There are a lot of good things about the US. I believe our commitment to freedom of speech is stronger than elsewhere. This case is strongly testing that belief. And, according to the ACLU, it will be at least two years before this court reaches the supreme court [1]. There is a lot of time to educate the public on the facts about the…

When has Lindsey Graham changed his mind? His Senate homepage still has this statement on it: ".@tim_cook Our nation is at war & this Iphone was used to kill Americans. Protect our homeland, not terrorists. Please cooperate with @FBI." https://twitter.com/GrahamBlog/status/700348813807063040 http://www.lgraham.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/

Around March 10 when he questioned Attorney General Loretta Lynch at a DOJ budget review hearing [1]

The video is 6 minutes and worth watching. It sounds like he is still forming his whole opinion. He certainly has changed his view from his initial comments. He's now calling for the debate to be held in Congress via passage of new laws.

[1] https://youtu.be/uk4hYAwCdhU?t=1m44s

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#217

Post by bobsil1 » Fri, Mar 18, 2016, 8:13 AM UTC

taneq wrote: post #173

yarou wrote: post #20

This is very much a case of civil disobedience. Non-violent struggle is a surprisingly effective tactic. As Gandhi states: >You can chain me, you can torture me, you can even destroy this body, but you will never imprison my mind.

Ghandi got away with his stunts because because he was up against the British, and they had comparatively okay ethics. Try that shit on someone who's actually bad and at best you'll just end up digging your own grave at gunpoint, then being "shot while escaping". While publicly the U.S. government probably wants to keep on the good side of popular opinion, they've proved time and again that in private they have littl…

>okay ethics

Let millions starve in manmade famine, massacres, 200 years of resource theft...

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#218

Post by nitrogen » Fri, Mar 18, 2016, 8:13 AM UTC

zaroth wrote: post #193

geofft wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lavabit's amicus brief explicitly argues that interpreting the All Writs Act the way the government is trying to interpret it is prohibited by the Thirteenth Amendment.

I think Lavabit wasn't about All Writs, rather it was a simple pen/trace order? Lavabit's problem was that they actually had access to the data, so they were capable of providing records and they didn't provide them. Then pen/trace laws require cloud email providers to provide this data to LE upon authorized request, and case law does not really support payment for hours expended to implement any data collection solu…

It looks like Lavabit filed an amicus/"friend of the court" brief in the Apple case: http://techcrunch.com/2016/03/07/apple-vs-fbi-lavabit-warns-...

Despite the differences in the two cases, it makes sense that Lavabit would want to help defend Apple's position.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#219

Post by da1 » Fri, Mar 18, 2016, 8:18 AM UTC

kstenerud wrote: post #26

Taking this further down the rabbit hole: Suppose that only about 5 people can do what the FBI wants done. Suppose all 5 refuse, to the point of quitting Apple. Does the FBI now compel them to return to Apple and write the software or go to jail? And what if one of those engineers says that he doesn't actually know how to do it; Apple only thought he could, but he actually can't. Now we get into territory of proving…

This is actually very simple. The state can just harass them into compliance. Tools at the state's disposal include but are not limited to:

#Legal:

* Judge orders them to comply, if they refuse they can be considered to be in contempt and incarcerated for a de facto arbitrary period of time at the judge's discretion (vide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._Beatty_Chadwick incarcerated for contempt for 14 years just because the judge suspected he had funds that apparently he didn't have, also Terrell Geiger http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-10-07/news/ct-met-lo...)

* Civil forfeiture. The state can just de facto steal every single item those people have and leave them unable to fight that in court (not that it would make much difference)

* Involuntary commitment. They can just be committed into a psychiatric institution where they can be drugged against their will and even tortured. This can be extended to an arbitrarily long period of time

* They can have their children taken away

* IRS can just accuse them of an astronomical tax debt, take all of their possessions and leave them effectively unable to get legal representation (not that it would make much difference)

#"Illegal":

* Just detain them in a secret facility and do with them as they dam well please

TLDR: The state does with you what it damn well pleases and there's nothing you can really do about it. Granted this usually doesn't happen but that's just because the stakes usually aren't that high.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#220

Post by studentrob » Fri, Mar 18, 2016, 8:21 AM UTC

gaur wrote: post #211

studentrob wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't plan to let that happen. Do you? I'll fight this as long as it's under discussion. Talk to your friends and family, contact your representatives and let them know you care. If we as technologists, the only ones who understand the tech side of things, are silent, then yes this defeatist attitude will win. We need not be silent.

> contact your representatives and let them know you care. Unless you have a lot of money, your representatives don't care. It seems like the only way to make progress is to support stronger encryption, with less of a possibility of engineering backdoors.

You may enjoy This American Life's episode on "Take the Money and Run for Office" [1]

> Dick Durbin: I think most Americans would be shocked-- not surprised, but shocked-- if they knew how much time a United States senator spends raising money. And how much time we spend talking about raising money, and thinking about raising money, and planning to raise money. And, you know, going off on little retreats and conjuring up new ideas on how to raise money. [2]

...

> Barney Frank: If the voters have a position, the votes will kick money's rear end any time. I've never met a politician-- I've been in the legislative bodies for 40 years now-- who, choosing between a significant opinion in his or her district and a number of campaign contributors, doesn't go with the district. [2]

The point is, if they are voted out they lose their jobs and income, therefore they must listen to voters. I'm not saying I support super PACs or anything, but I find it comforting to know that if we come together on something then we do have a role in the democratic process that is stronger than money.

[1] http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/461/t...

[2] http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/461/t...