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Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

nytimes.com

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Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#291

Post by Shivetya »

kstenerud wrote: post #26

Taking this further down the rabbit hole: Suppose that only about 5 people can do what the FBI wants done. Suppose all 5 refuse, to the point of quitting Apple. Does the FBI now compel them to return to Apple and write the software or go to jail? And what if one of those engineers says that he doesn't actually know how to do it; Apple only thought he could, but he actually can't. Now we get into territory of proving…

they could likely force Apple to hire the engineers required even to the point of designated engineers of the government's choosing. The damage that would be done to Apple worldwide would be inestimable

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#292

Post by kelseydh »

studentrob wrote: post #79
kstenerud wrote: post #26

Taking this further down the rabbit hole: Suppose that only about 5 people can do what the FBI wants done. Suppose all 5 refuse, to the point of quitting Apple. Does the FBI now compel them to return to Apple and write the software or go to jail? And what if one of those engineers says that he doesn't actually know how to do it; Apple only thought he could, but he actually can't. Now we get into territory of proving…

They could be fined hundreds of thousands daily for refusing to act. We recently found out this happened to Yahoo in 2008 [1] via the FISA court. Apple shareholders wouldn't like that. I'm pretty sure Tim Cook and his lawyer mean it when they say they will comply with the law. Apple engineers need not worry so much about quitting their jobs over this. If I were there I would stick with Tim Cook. Consider, If Apple lo…

There is good evidence that public debate is starting to turn. Senator Lindsay Graham, a national security hawk, is beginning to state reservations with the FBI's strategy. That's a big deal: https://youtu.be/zsjZ2r9Ygzw?t=14m30s

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#293

Post by techdragon »

studentrob wrote: post #79
kstenerud wrote: post #26

Taking this further down the rabbit hole: Suppose that only about 5 people can do what the FBI wants done. Suppose all 5 refuse, to the point of quitting Apple. Does the FBI now compel them to return to Apple and write the software or go to jail? And what if one of those engineers says that he doesn't actually know how to do it; Apple only thought he could, but he actually can't. Now we get into territory of proving…

They could be fined hundreds of thousands daily for refusing to act. We recently found out this happened to Yahoo in 2008 [1] via the FISA court. Apple shareholders wouldn't like that. I'm pretty sure Tim Cook and his lawyer mean it when they say they will comply with the law. Apple engineers need not worry so much about quitting their jobs over this. If I were there I would stick with Tim Cook. Consider, If Apple lo…

If they charged Apple a million dollars a day... They could just pay indefinitely and still be in a comfortable financial position...

The expense may actually prove valuable as their willingness to "pay the cost of defiance" might make them seem more appealing to customers and increase the value of their products.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#294

Post by kelseydh »

s_q_b wrote: post #260
gaur wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this becomes a gigantic public debate where we scramble to enact legislation that removes this power from the government. No such thing will happen. The public will forget this ever happened, and politicians will do nothing to prevent the government from doing this again.

Well, my tech-illiterate grandfather knows about this debate, and all he can understand is that the FBI has a terrorist's phone and Apple is obstructing their investigation. He thought encryption was something we could easily ban, and he's a civil engineer. I walked him through it mathematically, then gave examples until he understood, but not everyone has a technical background. We are losing because we aren't prese…

The problem is people have a hard time of wrapping their head around the idea that an encryption backdoor, once created, is at extreme risk of being leaked to others and can not be contained.

This is something that I find is hard to explain to nontechnical people because it isn't intuitive of our understanding of the real world.

E.g. "If a bank can keep my money from being stolen, then surely you can keep this backdoor from being stolen, so stop complaining and just do it already!" -- As Trump would probably say when ordering it done, echoing the sentiments of many.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#295

Post by kelseydh »

SturgeonsLaw wrote: post #214
EGreg wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does the government merely name a number out of thin air and the company now has to pay it? Can the government just declare the moon to be their property tomorrow? How would they enforce the delivery of these funds?

At its core, the government can enforce arbitrary declarations because they have the ability to use force against those who don't comply - ie; they control the prisons, the police and the armies. "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun" - Mao Zedong

As Max Weber would say, the government has a monopoly on the legitimate use of physical violence.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#296

Post by kelseydh »

s_q_b wrote: post #252
madaxe_again wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They'll go to jail. That's the cost of resistance in a totalitarian society.

You do go to jail, usually just court house holding, for contempt of court. That doesn't mean your due process rights disappear. You can challenge the warrant and the applicability of the All Writs Act all the way to SCOTUS. You can even still file a writ of Habeas Corpus. You can even say that you forgot how to make the modifications. The onus is on the DOJ to prove you haven't. Awfully hard to prove what's in a man…

Anybody who actually went to jail for conscientiously objecting to this would be making one of the smartest moves possible in their career. They'll go down in the history books, their jail time will be minimal, and they will be a celebrity / employable in the security community for decades.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#297

Post by vc98mvco »

tallanvor wrote: post #256
da1 wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, a judge could hold them in contempt and jail them for some time. Not some time, there's no limit. It can be extended arbitrarily. All the others points I made in the legal section are indeed legal and have been used in the past though they are indeed unusual.

For the time limit, yes and no. Jailing someone who is held in contempt is done as a coercive measure. If the need for the person to do something passes, they can't continue to be held. Could they theoretically be held for 20 years? Sure. But that type of action is extremely rare and isn't likely to happen here. The FBI can't take away the person's children. --Even if he's put in jail, the other parent would retain c…

> But that type of action is extremely rare and isn't likely to happen here.

Given the importance of the situation it seems it is very likely it is going to happen just here. It's up to the judge(s).

>and family court judges aren't overly likely to go along with that.

It's up to the judge(s).

>The FBI could potentially convince a psychiatrist...

This is just redirecting pressure to a different person, keep doing it until you find that someone who will buckle.

> Most members of the law enforcement community are decent people and aren't willing to do that type of stuff.

Just like above, most are honest, but you only need one that isn't.

If you think all of those are impossible by the US government, take a look at you know where, where torture doesn't happen, and no-one was prosecuted for torture that didn't happen.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#298

Post by Lawtonfogle »

cubano wrote: post #274
studentrob wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could be fined hundreds of thousands daily for refusing to act. We recently found out this happened to Yahoo in 2008 [1] via the FISA court. Apple shareholders wouldn't like that. I'm pretty sure Tim Cook and his lawyer mean it when they say they will comply with the law. Apple engineers need not worry so much about quitting their jobs over this. If I were there I would stick with Tim Cook. Consider, If Apple lo…

Your nativity on how "criminal justice" and law enforcement works is kinda astounding to me. If a judge orders an injunction against these citizens and they don't comply, he won't fine them, he will jail them, which is an incredible hardship, esp. against people not used to the prison industrial complex and its dehumanizing effects. Perhaps sitting in jail for weeks or months will endure these guys to the IT masses a…

Can the court order you to do something you don't know how?

If you can show these people would know how to do it, then it must be common enough knowledge that the courts could find someone else.

If it is highly specialized knowledge that only these people might even know, then you can't prove that they do know how to do it.

Either way, you can't justify forcing them to do it. And it is if we are even fine with slavery to begin with, which I'm not.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#299

Post by kelseydh »

tallanvor wrote: post #256
da1 wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, a judge could hold them in contempt and jail them for some time. Not some time, there's no limit. It can be extended arbitrarily. All the others points I made in the legal section are indeed legal and have been used in the past though they are indeed unusual.

For the time limit, yes and no. Jailing someone who is held in contempt is done as a coercive measure. If the need for the person to do something passes, they can't continue to be held. Could they theoretically be held for 20 years? Sure. But that type of action is extremely rare and isn't likely to happen here. The FBI can't take away the person's children. --Even if he's put in jail, the other parent would retain c…

Exactly, it's this kind of nuance people so often miss.

Black and white thinking. The government does something you disagree with, so suddenly now it's natural to expect them to wield literally every tool of state power against you to make that happen.

The government, after all, is not a singular entity. Its made up of many checks and balances and institutions that often act in disagreement with one another.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#300

Post by kelseydh »

tremon wrote: post #268
ethbro wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Snowden and the NSA dragnet are a bit more abstract than a personal right to encryption on a device in ones ownership.

How so? To me, dragnet surveillance is a lot easier to explain and conceptualize to non-techies than personal encryption. And I use encryption on all my devices (except my android phone, it's still running 4.x)

One aspect is the difference in opponent. Until recently most people thought NSA-level surveillance only applied if you were a national security threat like Osama Bin Laden.

In this case we're talking about the FBI wanting access for regular police cases. That touches way closer to reality for many.

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