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Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

nytimes.com

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Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#251

Post by 77pt77 »

sdenton4 wrote: post #44
iamleppert wrote: post #24

I bet none of these engineers have spent a single night in jail. All it would take would be for a judge to send a single one to jail for the weekend, and they'd be happy to quickly bang out whatever the government wanted as soon as possible on Monday morning. The sentiment is nice, but I doubt the government is worried in the slightest. The government is all powerful and can be whatever it wants, lest we forget.

Meh. I've spent time in jail after getting picked up at a protest. All charges eventually dropped. Knowing you're there for the right reasons, with strong outside support makes a huge difference. I'd gladly take some jail time on a fight like this.

> All charges eventually dropped

Care to say what were the charges originally?

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#252

Post by s_q_b »

madaxe_again wrote: post #238
kstenerud wrote: post #26

Taking this further down the rabbit hole: Suppose that only about 5 people can do what the FBI wants done. Suppose all 5 refuse, to the point of quitting Apple. Does the FBI now compel them to return to Apple and write the software or go to jail? And what if one of those engineers says that he doesn't actually know how to do it; Apple only thought he could, but he actually can't. Now we get into territory of proving…

They'll go to jail. That's the cost of resistance in a totalitarian society.

You do go to jail, usually just court house holding, for contempt of court.

That doesn't mean your due process rights disappear. You can challenge the warrant and the applicability of the All Writs Act all the way to SCOTUS. You can even still file a writ of Habeas Corpus.

You can even say that you forgot how to make the modifications. The onus is on the DOJ to prove you haven't. Awfully hard to prove what's in a man's head.

You could even argue that there's potential criminal liability (e.g. state wiretap laws) in your assistance, and invoke the Fifth Amendment. It's also awfully hard to prove that a man has definitively not committed a crime.

Best and most commonly, you can convince the judge that as a matter of conscience there is no amount of time in jail that will convince you to comply with the court's order. Thus holding you in custody serves no judicial purpose, and you are free to go.

This may be one where going to jail out of protest is necessary. I say that as someone who faced felony charges that were wholly fabricated, and was offered deal after deal, but I told them I would never take any deal because it wasn't right. I've never forgotten the look I got in response on the prosecutor's face.

I've got a feeling, however, that the FBI has made a grave PR mistake here. People have such a personal connection to Apple. A huge portion of the powerful population holds considers their iPhones their most significant inanimate posession.

Holding the makers of these devices indefinitely in a jail cell, without trial, might finally connect the American populace to the fact that they have just witnessed the largest scandal since... probably post-Vietnam.

This is a moment that where history turns on the decisions of a few. And people have been known to sacrifice far more than time in U.S. prison for ideals far less worthy.

If the warrant is upheld, it will be a very individual decision whether to comply.

Resistance has power, even under far more hostile governments than ours.

I'd like to think I wouldn't. But truly I don't think anyone can really know that until it's real.

--------

If anybody from Apple happens to read this:

You are already naked. There is no reason not to follow your heart. - Jobs

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#253

Post by da1 »

JimDabell wrote: post #197
tacos wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) Judge rules that Apple must disclose the information. 2) Judge issues a subpoena to an employee that another employee has said is capable of retrieving the information. "Do you have the capability to retrieve this PIN number?" "Yes, your honor." "Will you do so?" "No, your honor." "I find you in contempt. Lock this gentleman up."

> "Do you have the capability to retrieve this PIN number?" The answer to this question is no, since the person would be no longer employed by Apple, would not possess the source code, and would not possess the signing key. Even if you assumed that the court could force Apple to disclose these items to somebody who is now a third-party, it may be the case that there isn't any person who is capable of doing this. Are…

> > "Do you have the capability to retrieve this PIN number?"

> The answer to this question is no

Doesn't matter. All the judge needs is to notice in your face that you do have that capability.

Don't believe me? Look at this case:

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-10-07/news/ct-met-lo...

According to the judge:

"What I saw in his face was just defiance. He was not going to testify in this double homicide case because he wasn't going to testify. That's all there was to it. So I saw pure scorn for the judicial system in the defendant's face."

Because the judge didn't like his face he gets 20 years for contempt.

20 years!

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#254

Post by thirdsun »

LAMike wrote: post #34
jfoutz wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The DOJ couldn't shut down apple. Apple has $200,000,000,000 in cash and marketable securities. DOJ's budget is only 27 billion. That's a lot of lawyer time. It's a huge waste of money, but there it is. Way less likely, but Apple could move HQ to another country. And take their secret source code and keys with them.

The US government would respond by banning all iOS devices

Which is probably a very good way to cause at least minor riots.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#255

Post by optforfon »

peteretep wrote: post #67
jacquesm wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're in the territory of outright slavery. That would be a new low on all fronts.

There seem to be a whole bunch of people waving around odd ideas. The idea that this would be a new low is ridiculous if one takes the time to consider conscription. If you don't like that the government can coerce you (conscription, work in jail, contempt of court, eminent domain, etc) then rally against those laws, rather than the court using established powers

- people have protested extensively when there was a draft - as far as I understand, unlike in Russia or some place you actually aren't forced to work in jail. It's voluntary - they do it because they get paid and get extra benefits - no eminent domain would be pretty insane... you wouldn't have highways or railways etc. without it... since it's been abused in the past - but it has it's place

Forcing people to work for the court does seems like a weird thing though. The whole "contempt of court" is a bit arbitrary (like you can be jailed indefinitely .. based on the decision of just a judge?) and just hasn't really been abused till now

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#256

Post by tallanvor »

da1 wrote: post #223
tallanvor wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? Yes, a judge could hold them in contempt and jail them for some time. That's the only legal option. It's possible they could seize some assets as part of the contempt charge, but there are already plenty of legal groups that would jump at the opportunity to represent them pro bono. The other suggestions you offer are, to be blunt, those of a conspiracy nut.

> Yes, a judge could hold them in contempt and jail them for some time. Not some time, there's no limit. It can be extended arbitrarily. All the others points I made in the legal section are indeed legal and have been used in the past though they are indeed unusual.

For the time limit, yes and no. Jailing someone who is held in contempt is done as a coercive measure. If the need for the person to do something passes, they can't continue to be held. Could they theoretically be held for 20 years? Sure. But that type of action is extremely rare and isn't likely to happen here.

The FBI can't take away the person's children. --Even if he's put in jail, the other parent would retain custody. The FBI would have to convince social services to remove the children from the home, and family court judges aren't overly likely to go along with that.

The FBI could potentially convince a psychiatrist to have a person involuntarily committed for a short time for observation, but they can't force any doctor or hospital to put the people on drugs or otherwise force some form of treatment on them if there's not diagnosis of mental illness.

The FBI doesn't get to tell the IRS to make claims about a person owing an astronomical sum. I suppose they could fabricate evidence and give it to the IRS, but then the individuals responsible would be performing illegal actions and risk being sent to prison themselves. Most members of the law enforcement community are decent people and aren't willing to do that type of stuff.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#257

Post by X0Refraction »

snowwrestler wrote: post #171
rawnlq wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if there's any advantage for Apple to form their own sovereign nation to operate out of. They are already richer than many existing countries. Can't they just buy out a Singapore-sized island somewhere?

There's probably no advantage; to do business in the U.S., a company must comport with U.S. laws. If Apple moved their HQ to the Sovereign Island of SteveJobistan, they would still have to follow U.S. court orders if they wanted to sell products to Americans within the borders of the U.S.

But would the U.S. populace put up with not being able to buy Apple devices at all? That starts sounding like restriction on free trade to the average American which is something they are much more likely to stand against as the government couldn't leverage fear to make the populace go against their own interests.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#258

Post by dTal »

SturgeonsLaw wrote: post #214
EGreg wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does the government merely name a number out of thin air and the company now has to pay it? Can the government just declare the moon to be their property tomorrow? How would they enforce the delivery of these funds?

At its core, the government can enforce arbitrary declarations because they have the ability to use force against those who don't comply - ie; they control the prisons, the police and the armies. "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun" - Mao Zedong

I dunno, it seems a bit like saying the dollar has value because of the gold in Fort Knox. Possibly it was once true, and it provides a pleasing sense of solidity to an intangible thing, but the scary reality is that it's largely down to social convention. If enough people rejected the legitimacy of government wholesale, its power would evaporate and brute force would not restore it.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#259

Post by s_q_b »

studentrob wrote: post #79
kstenerud wrote: post #26

Taking this further down the rabbit hole: Suppose that only about 5 people can do what the FBI wants done. Suppose all 5 refuse, to the point of quitting Apple. Does the FBI now compel them to return to Apple and write the software or go to jail? And what if one of those engineers says that he doesn't actually know how to do it; Apple only thought he could, but he actually can't. Now we get into territory of proving…

They could be fined hundreds of thousands daily for refusing to act. We recently found out this happened to Yahoo in 2008 [1] via the FISA court. Apple shareholders wouldn't like that. I'm pretty sure Tim Cook and his lawyer mean it when they say they will comply with the law. Apple engineers need not worry so much about quitting their jobs over this. If I were there I would stick with Tim Cook. Consider, If Apple lo…

Apple has quarter trillion dollars of cash on hand. Without calculating interest or expected value, at 100k a day, Apple could hold out for over a millennium.

I'm sure Apple has a legal army gaming out each one of these scenarios.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#260

Post by s_q_b »

gaur wrote: post #167
studentrob wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could be fined hundreds of thousands daily for refusing to act. We recently found out this happened to Yahoo in 2008 [1] via the FISA court. Apple shareholders wouldn't like that. I'm pretty sure Tim Cook and his lawyer mean it when they say they will comply with the law. Apple engineers need not worry so much about quitting their jobs over this. If I were there I would stick with Tim Cook. Consider, If Apple lo…

> this becomes a gigantic public debate where we scramble to enact legislation that removes this power from the government. No such thing will happen. The public will forget this ever happened, and politicians will do nothing to prevent the government from doing this again.

Well, my tech-illiterate grandfather knows about this debate, and all he can understand is that the FBI has a terrorist's phone and Apple is obstructing their investigation.

He thought encryption was something we could easily ban, and he's a civil engineer. I walked him through it mathematically, then gave examples until he understood, but not everyone has a technical background.

We are losing because we aren't presenting an alternative public narrative.

We must educate the public on the necessity of strong encryption to the modern economy, and the danger of backdoors. Even getting them to imagine how the Soviets would have used this technology is usually enough to get the greatest generation and the boomers to at least think.

We won against the Clipper chip, munitions classifications, export grade encryption, 96-bit maximum key sizes, and SOPA.

We can win here.

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