Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

271–280 of 376 posts

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#271

Post by jnbiche »

adventured wrote: post #249
superuser2 wrote: post #105

If Apple continues to resist, the FBI will simply take the source code and signing keys and hand them over to some contractor to do the work. Is that better? Apple's source code and signing keys in the FBI's hands?

It would be better to push the FBI into that position, yes. Make them steal that property at gun point, literally. Force them to show up at Apple HQ, with SWAT teams, threatening to murder innocent, unarmed engineers in the streets. Make sure every news source available is there to witness and broadcast it live. Why force it? To drop all pretext of what this really is, and reveal the US Government's actions as being…

> We're probably two or three steps or 'events' away from our first Caesar attempting to take permanent executive power.

Or a single election. Hitler gained initial power democratically, after all.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#272

Post by DigitalSea »

avar wrote: post #232
peterkelly wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always thought of Singapore as the "Apple" of countries. Incredibly modern, clean, organised, and well-presented. But run according to very strict rules, like banning chewing gum entirely, and $500 fines for littering.

Funny how a lot of Americans think banning chewing gum is oppressive but don't realize the similarity in the USA entirely banning Kinder Surprise eggs. Lots of arbitrary stuff is banned in a lot of countries. Singapore just thought the littering cons of gum outweighed the pros. Note that stuff like nicotine gum and other "therapeutic" chewing gum is still allowed, they just don't allow the candy that leads to litteri…

> looking around in a lot of cities where the entirety of downtown is slowly growing into a white blob composed of little individual pieces of squashed chewing gum

Gum wall in Seattle, case in point.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#273

Post by cubano »

s_q_b wrote: post #260
gaur wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this becomes a gigantic public debate where we scramble to enact legislation that removes this power from the government. No such thing will happen. The public will forget this ever happened, and politicians will do nothing to prevent the government from doing this again.

Well, my tech-illiterate grandfather knows about this debate, and all he can understand is that the FBI has a terrorist's phone and Apple is obstructing their investigation. He thought encryption was something we could easily ban, and he's a civil engineer. I walked him through it mathematically, then gave examples until he understood, but not everyone has a technical background. We are losing because we aren't prese…

It was 56-bit maximum key size btw.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#274

Post by cubano »

studentrob wrote: post #79
kstenerud wrote: post #26

Taking this further down the rabbit hole: Suppose that only about 5 people can do what the FBI wants done. Suppose all 5 refuse, to the point of quitting Apple. Does the FBI now compel them to return to Apple and write the software or go to jail? And what if one of those engineers says that he doesn't actually know how to do it; Apple only thought he could, but he actually can't. Now we get into territory of proving…

They could be fined hundreds of thousands daily for refusing to act. We recently found out this happened to Yahoo in 2008 [1] via the FISA court. Apple shareholders wouldn't like that. I'm pretty sure Tim Cook and his lawyer mean it when they say they will comply with the law. Apple engineers need not worry so much about quitting their jobs over this. If I were there I would stick with Tim Cook. Consider, If Apple lo…

Your nativity on how "criminal justice" and law enforcement works is kinda astounding to me.

If a judge orders an injunction against these citizens and they don't comply, he won't fine them, he will jail them, which is an incredible hardship, esp. against people not used to the prison industrial complex and its dehumanizing effects.

Perhaps sitting in jail for weeks or months will endure these guys to the IT masses as martyrs-to-the-cause, but I would fully expect them to cave after a little while.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#275

Post by taneq »

bobsil1 wrote: post #217
taneq wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ghandi got away with his stunts because because he was up against the British, and they had comparatively okay ethics. Try that shit on someone who's actually bad and at best you'll just end up digging your own grave at gunpoint, then being "shot while escaping". While publicly the U.S. government probably wants to keep on the good side of popular opinion, they've proved time and again that in private they have littl…

>okay ethics Let millions starve in manmade famine, massacres, 200 years of resource theft...

But not "listen to your complaint, laugh, shoot you in the face, set fire to your children."

Bad things happened under their rule but they weren't actively evil in the same league as so many regimes. If you think British rule was the worst thing that could happen to a place you're pretty sheltered.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#276

Post by [deleted] »

studentrob wrote: post #200
oh_sigh wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What was sam harris's point of view?

Oh his is great! I couldn't summarize it sufficiently. Basically, he did a complete 180. You should listen to both his first [1] and third [2] podcast on the subject. In the first one he really lambasted supporters of encryption, and in the third he changed his view completely. He quotes a good analogy here [3] and concludes his thoughts with a final opinion here [4] I don't fault him for his first podcast. He came u…

[deleted]

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#277

Post by chiph »

cubano wrote: post #274
studentrob wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could be fined hundreds of thousands daily for refusing to act. We recently found out this happened to Yahoo in 2008 [1] via the FISA court. Apple shareholders wouldn't like that. I'm pretty sure Tim Cook and his lawyer mean it when they say they will comply with the law. Apple engineers need not worry so much about quitting their jobs over this. If I were there I would stick with Tim Cook. Consider, If Apple lo…

Your nativity on how "criminal justice" and law enforcement works is kinda astounding to me. If a judge orders an injunction against these citizens and they don't comply, he won't fine them, he will jail them, which is an incredible hardship, esp. against people not used to the prison industrial complex and its dehumanizing effects. Perhaps sitting in jail for weeks or months will endure these guys to the IT masses a…

I think he meant Apple will be fined. The engineers, if directly ordered by the court to "fix" [0] the software will be charged with contempt of court, and jailed.

[1] I mean this in the sense of to deal with or correct a problem, and also to influence the result by improper or illegal methods

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#278

Post by vc98mvco »

studentrob wrote: post #200
oh_sigh wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What was sam harris's point of view?

Oh his is great! I couldn't summarize it sufficiently. Basically, he did a complete 180. You should listen to both his first [1] and third [2] podcast on the subject. In the first one he really lambasted supporters of encryption, and in the third he changed his view completely. He quotes a good analogy here [3] and concludes his thoughts with a final opinion here [4] I don't fault him for his first podcast. He came u…

Thank you! Can you also link the second podcast?

Edit

Here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yp6IhjK75oE

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#279

Post by rev_null »

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #125
studentrob wrote: post #74

I honestly feel that engineers need not fall on their swords over this. The decision is up to them, of course. But ultimately, shareholders would expect someone to comply with the court order should the DOJ win. Note that Yahoo was threatened with daily fines of $250,000 for failing to comply in a FISA court case in 2008, and we only just learned this in 2014 [1]. I don't think we would live in a forced back door wor…

There are no terrorists. It's a fiction imposed upon the American people by a government with a power trip.

There definitely are terrorists. We spend a lot of money every year perpetuating wars to ensure that there will always be people willing to commit acts of terrorism against our country.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#280

Post by madaxe_again »

studentrob wrote: post #172
gaur wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this becomes a gigantic public debate where we scramble to enact legislation that removes this power from the government. No such thing will happen. The public will forget this ever happened, and politicians will do nothing to prevent the government from doing this again.

I don't plan to let that happen. Do you? I'll fight this as long as it's under discussion. Talk to your friends and family, contact your representatives and let them know you care. If we as technologists, the only ones who understand the tech side of things, are silent, then yes this defeatist attitude will win. We need not be silent.

My friends and family have largely disowned me as a "Terrorist sympathiser" over this and other similar matters - convincing arguments based in fact and logic are nothing in the face of loud and blustery arguments - if it was said on TV, or by a politician, it must be true. This holds in the minds of most.
Post reply on HN