Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 376 posts

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#61

Post by joesmo »

harryh wrote: post #58
seanp2k2 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since corporations are people, they should be able to plead the 5th as well.

Sure, but in this case Apple isn't being accused of anything so the 5th amendment doesn't apply.

"nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself" (https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/fifth_amendment)

This is a criminal case, however. It would apply to real people, but likely does not apply to corporations regardless of rulings treating corporations as people for other purpose. I imagine the Apple lawyers would have had it as part of their defense strategy if it did.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#62

Post by naaaaak »

rawnlq wrote: post #36
jfoutz wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The DOJ couldn't shut down apple. Apple has $200,000,000,000 in cash and marketable securities. DOJ's budget is only 27 billion. That's a lot of lawyer time. It's a huge waste of money, but there it is. Way less likely, but Apple could move HQ to another country. And take their secret source code and keys with them.

I wonder if there's any advantage for Apple to form their own sovereign nation to operate out of. They are already richer than many existing countries. Can't they just buy out a Singapore-sized island somewhere?

If this becomes a thing, the world is going to run out of islands faster than companies can buy them to evade totalitarian governments.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#64

Post by na85 »

harryh wrote: post #56

Son, go to your room! But I don't want to go to my room! Son, go to your room! Mommy, what would happen if on the way to my room I ran into a pack of wild dogs in the hallway blocking my path? Would I still have to go to my room?

I bet you're fun at parties.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#65

Post by atonse »

kstenerud wrote: post #26

Taking this further down the rabbit hole: Suppose that only about 5 people can do what the FBI wants done. Suppose all 5 refuse, to the point of quitting Apple. Does the FBI now compel them to return to Apple and write the software or go to jail? And what if one of those engineers says that he doesn't actually know how to do it; Apple only thought he could, but he actually can't. Now we get into territory of proving…

I don't know how that would work. The filing compels Apple to follow the order, and doesn't name any engineers.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#66

Post by yarou »

pdkl95 wrote: post #54
stcredzero wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You can chain me, you can torture me, you can even destroy this body, but you will never imprison my mind. He said that in the 20th century. Imprisoning the mind is the province of the 21st century. Both governments and pseudo-"activists" now seek to do this by leveraging the Internet.

All it will take to "imprison the mind" is convincing enough people to use a system that gives positive reinforcement when your friends act "correctly". Normal social behavior will do the rest. China (with Tencent) is already trying this, and Facebook has at least explored this area[2]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHcTKWiZ8sI [2] https://consumerist.com/2015/08/05/facebook-patent-would-all...

That's what memes are, aren't they? A prison for your mind. I'm sure corporations and governments are already researching how to exploit the viral nature of memes. It's inception, except we're awake (arguably). Social consciousness is gone, replaced by tiny "nano"-ideas that spread faster than an Asian woman's legs for a white dude.[0]

[0] http://oktrends.okcupid.com

(Adding the source so dang doesn't accuse me of incivility when my speech reflects reality. I know HN is a no fun allowed zone, but I couldn't resist.)

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#67

Post by peteretep »

jacquesm wrote: post #29
kstenerud wrote: post #26

Taking this further down the rabbit hole: Suppose that only about 5 people can do what the FBI wants done. Suppose all 5 refuse, to the point of quitting Apple. Does the FBI now compel them to return to Apple and write the software or go to jail? And what if one of those engineers says that he doesn't actually know how to do it; Apple only thought he could, but he actually can't. Now we get into territory of proving…

You're in the territory of outright slavery. That would be a new low on all fronts.

There seem to be a whole bunch of people waving around odd ideas.

The idea that this would be a new low is ridiculous if one takes the time to consider conscription.

If you don't like that the government can coerce you (conscription, work in jail, contempt of court, eminent domain, etc) then rally against those laws, rather than the court using established powers

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#68

Post by vidanay »

harryh wrote: post #56

Son, go to your room! But I don't want to go to my room! Son, go to your room! Mommy, what would happen if on the way to my room I ran into a pack of wild dogs in the hallway blocking my path? Would I still have to go to my room?

I'm guessing you don't have children? My seven year old asks EXACTLY this type of hypothetical question.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#69

Post by eximius »

pdkl95 wrote: post #48
caf wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if you can draft people to go over to Vietnam and be shot at by the NVA...

I just mentioned how this could be interpreted as a draft to my mother who grew up watching the Vietnam draft, and she immediately brought up an interesting question: "Can you be a conscientious objector?" Given that nobody is being put in a position where they might have to use deadly force, the usual pacifist or religious arguments don't apply. While suspect it would be hard to extend the concept to the orders give…

I don't think you can 'conscientiously object' to any law you want, so no.

Though I probably would anyway.

- I'd like to think. It's hard to really know.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#70

Post by rqebmm »

naaaaak wrote: post #62
rawnlq wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if there's any advantage for Apple to form their own sovereign nation to operate out of. They are already richer than many existing countries. Can't they just buy out a Singapore-sized island somewhere?

If this becomes a thing, the world is going to run out of islands faster than companies can buy them to evade totalitarian governments.

Not if the sovereign state of Applestan starts offering attractive lease options
Post reply on HN