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Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

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Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#141

Post by pgwhalen »

clarkmoody wrote: post #107

The larger issue, by far, is whether we are a free people . From the article: CLARKE: No, the point I'm trying to make is there are limits. And what this is is a case where the federal government, using a 1789 law, is trying to compel speech. And courts have ruled in the past, appropriately, that the government cannot compel speech. What the FBI and the Justice Department are trying to do is to make code writers at A…

This is way overblown. Yes, the government should not be able compel Apple to build back doors, but this isn't some kind of new precedent about compulsion. There are plenty of industries where the cost of doing business includes creating something to satisfy a regulatory requirement.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#142

Post by summerdown2 »

wiz21 wrote: post #85
emodendroket wrote: post #79

It seems clear to me that if all the money we spent on fighting terrorism since 9/11 were instead spent on, say, reducing traffic fatalities, it would have saved a lot more people.

That's so clear and so mathematically obvious, +100 karma point for you ! That's basic risk analysis

Except that the comparison isn't:

320,000 people dead due to traffic fatalities over 10 years.

  vs
350 people dead in terrorism over 10 years

It's:

320,000 people dead due to traffic fatalities over 10 years causing little political fallout.

  vs
350 people dead in terrorism over 10 years plus a lot of political fallout for each event.

Bluntly, to shift the risk argument we'd either need to take politicans out of the decision making and give it to some independent fact-based body, or get the media and people in general far more riled up about car crashes.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#143

Post by emodendroket »

summerdown2 wrote: post #142
wiz21 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's so clear and so mathematically obvious, +100 karma point for you ! That's basic risk analysis

Except that the comparison isn't: 320,000 people dead due to traffic fatalities over 10 years. vs 350 people dead in terrorism over 10 years It's: 320,000 people dead due to traffic fatalities over 10 years causing little political fallout. vs 350 people dead in terrorism over 10 years plus a lot of political fallout for each event. Bluntly, to shift the risk argument we'd either need to take politicans out of the de…

It seems to me that you are simply reiterating the original argument.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#144

Post by jaycroft »

pgwhalen wrote: post #141
clarkmoody wrote: post #107

The larger issue, by far, is whether we are a free people . From the article: CLARKE: No, the point I'm trying to make is there are limits. And what this is is a case where the federal government, using a 1789 law, is trying to compel speech. And courts have ruled in the past, appropriately, that the government cannot compel speech. What the FBI and the Justice Department are trying to do is to make code writers at A…

This is way overblown. Yes, the government should not be able compel Apple to build back doors, but this isn't some kind of new precedent about compulsion. There are plenty of industries where the cost of doing business includes creating something to satisfy a regulatory requirement.

I believe that it is indeed a new precident about compulsion. If say, I want to make airplane parts I need to satisfy regulatory requirements. I know those requirements in advance, and can decide if I want to be a parts manufacturer or not. Lets say I instead decide to make drone parts for hobbyists because there's less regulation. Should the government be able to compel me to obtain an AS9100 cert so that they can bolt some of my hobby parts on a DHS operated drone? I would call that slavery. The FBI is attempting to compel Apple to do work that they never anticipated in order to comply with laws that do not yet exist.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#145

Post by bicknergseng »

I just had a thought: what happens if Apple complies with the order (say they lose the legal battle or something), but individual employees refuse to build the software? I think the verdict is out on whether or not Apple, a corporation, can be compelled to do this, but what if they can't find anyone to do it?

Just thinking it _should_ be much harder to compel individuals to do something like this than it is to compel a corporation.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#146

Post by JoeAltmaier »

bicknergseng wrote: post #145

I just had a thought: what happens if Apple complies with the order (say they lose the legal battle or something), but individual employees refuse to build the software? I think the verdict is out on whether or not Apple, a corporation, can be compelled to do this, but what if they can't find anyone to do it? Just thinking it _should_ be much harder to compel individuals to do something like this than it is to compel…

Ha! Folks will line up to do the job. I've refused to violate federal regulations (re wireless devices, bands and transmission rules) as a contractor and had the regular employees jump right in and volunteer for the job. At a Midwest manufacturer in a liberal (college) town.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#147

Post by randyrand »

cryoshon wrote: post #75
pjc50 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Turn it around: when all communications are compromised to the FBI, how can anyone do any politics that is considered the slightest bit fringe? Always remember that the FBI was against the civil rights movement and MLK. And consider that one of the leading presidential candidates is getting into the habit of inciting violence: http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/the-rage-and-the-derp--2

Government/police types trend heavily Republican, though. I assume many of them are voting for Trump.

Government workers are almost always left. The left is very sympathetic to government workers, unions, ect. Its in their best interest to be left.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#148

Post by SCHiM »

nickpsecurity wrote: post #138
h0w412d wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. Cory Doctorow has talked about this: how the universe "makes it easy" to secure communications because mathematically, it's really easy to encrypt (verify that a number is prime) and really difficult to decrypt through hacking (factor a huge prime number). And because of that, outlawing encryption is really outlawing math, which is ridiculous. Math is a universal API everyone has access to simply by existing. Yo…

Do you have a link to that? Because I know a guy who really needs to counterpoint it. High-security engineer, Clive Robinson, always said security is about physics if you look at it down to the hardware. The physics try to connect things in ways you didn't see coming. That allows unauthorized communications. The physics also try to corrupt the operation of your chips. That compromises computational security mechanism…

Security != encryption in every case. What you're describing is actually also what makes encryption stronger/easier than decryption:

A priori there's only 1 correct plaintext, while there are limitless chipertexts of any given plain text (assuming arbitrary IV lengths and key). You can't change that and this is basically what makes encryption so much stronger than decryption.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#149

Post by ch4s3 »

jccc wrote: post #82

Before you comment, please consider whether you'd prefer to vent your frustration in online message boards with like-minded people, or spend that potential energy in other ways: "What you can do about it: -- You can contact the Obama White House online to comment on strong encryption. https://www.whitehouse.gov/webform/share-your-thoughts-onstr... -- You can contact your state Senators and Representatives via the con…

"Strong encryption is a cornerstone of freedom of the press, privacy, health care, banking, and commerce to name a few only a few of our national interests. Any erosion to this bedrock of modern society harms us all. Once back doors exist they cannot be kept secret. To quote a common adage, "security by obscurity is not security". Similarly, outlawing strong crypto technology only keeps it out of the hands of law abiding American citizens and companies. Since encryption is based on mathematical concepts that once understood can be somewhat trivially implemented in code, it is impossible to put back in pandora's box. The US government cannot stop foreign nationals from writing crypto software or publishing math papers. Harming cryptography in the name of security would simply serve undermine our own economic and civil interests, while doing nothing to stop "terror.""

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#150

Post by neutronicus »

bsder wrote: post #19
Gratsby wrote: post #4

>PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: If, technologically, it is possible to make an impenetrable device or system where the encryption is so strong that there's no key - there's no door at all - then how do we apprehend the child pornographer? How do we solve or disrupt a terrorist plot? It's so disappointing to me to hear a quote like that from the President.

The moment you mention "child pornography" as justification I consider that you have lost the argument. This is simply Godwin's Law for the modern era.

Why is that?

If certain tales of the dark net are to be believed, it has enabled an unprecedented level of communication between abusers of children. Seems like an obvious "con" of widely-available secure communication.

If you believe the "pros" outweigh it, say so, but don't pretend it isn't relevant.

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