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Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

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Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#71

Post by belorn »

mozumder wrote: post #13
Gratsby wrote: post #4

>PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: If, technologically, it is possible to make an impenetrable device or system where the encryption is so strong that there's no key - there's no door at all - then how do we apprehend the child pornographer? How do we solve or disrupt a terrorist plot? It's so disappointing to me to hear a quote like that from the President.

So how DO you disrupt criminal plots, then? Do you allow people to conspire to commit crimes? You're going to find, that once you think it through, that you'll end up limiting the rights and freedoms of individuals... there's no getting around that. Life sucks that way. People were never their own little countries. I just feel sorry for the middle-class suckers that thought they had freedom. Poor guys - they never fi…

How to prevent crime, and what works? There is a long history behind that question, and even longer history of attempted strategies. Studies has asked why different nations has different crime rate, why it can change from decade to decade, or between cities in the same nation.

From that, there is also meta studies/books that has asked what the studies has shown. To take an example, the book freakonomics pointed out that out of all the crime reducing strategies, abortion laws has shown to be one of the best method. Unwanted children tend to have higher risk of being born with low social and economic status, which is then a strong predictor for crime. None of the other strategies that were looked on had any major effect on crime rate.

Then we have surveillance. Government studies has shown CCTV is effective to reduce vehicle crimes, but no evidence is found that it prevent violent crime. One study concluded that better illumination could be a cheap way of cutting illegal activity to the same degree as CCTVs.

Surveillance in stores and bank has shown a very unexpected result. It has proven useless in preventing robberies, and shoplifters are generally not bothered by them. However, studies has shown that employees accounts for 43% loss of revenue from shoplifting and that is reduced by surveilling. Banks was also one of the early adapters who noticed this.

Then we have studies such as the last month from Harvard, which said that the available information that police investigators has when investigate crime is increasing at a very fast rate. "The trajectory of technological development points to a future abundant in unencrypted data," the study said. Comparing today with the days before encryption, and today is much easier time for a police investigator.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#72

Post by sugarfactory »

I think Apple and all other tech companies that support it move as the FBI (or whoever controls the FBI) expected or wanted.

What was revealed a few years ago was the fact that big tech companies betrayed people's trust. So quite naturally they should attempt to regain that trust. Because if majority of people stop trusting tech companies and start using end-to-end encryption, use of encryption stops working as a signifier that indicates a higher likelihood that the user's doing something wrong. Thus it's crucial to keep ordinary people away from using encryption. In order to achieve this, it's important to make people trust big tech companies again.

In my opinion, this is what the writer of the plot of the dispute between the FBI and Apple thinks.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#73

Post by hammock »

ptaipale wrote: post #8
jacquesm wrote: post #2

> No, David. If I were in the job now, I would have simply told the FBI to call Fort Meade, the headquarters of the National Security Agency, and NSA would have solved this problem for them. They're not as interested in solving the problem as they are in getting a legal precedent. That's quite the quote, especially given his history of employment. The weirdest thing about this whole cell-phone saga to me is that the…

> the perps are dead, did not appear to be part of some organized group A reasonable reason for inquiry here is to actually try to make sure if they were part of some organized group. "Appear not to be" is not quite enough. This is a valid reason to investigate even if they are dead. How did they get radicalized, etc. Not that it is a good enough reason to enforce breaking of encryption in the way proposed, but in a…

"Appear not to be" is often enough. The government is required to have probable cause to conduct a search.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#74

Post by hammock »

Gratsby wrote: post #4

>PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: If, technologically, it is possible to make an impenetrable device or system where the encryption is so strong that there's no key - there's no door at all - then how do we apprehend the child pornographer? How do we solve or disrupt a terrorist plot? It's so disappointing to me to hear a quote like that from the President.

Imagine if he had said "If it is possible to make an impenetrable safebox so strong that there's no key - there's no door at all - then how do we apprehend the money or gold inside it? How do we save the economy?"

That is the next frontier. A backdoor into your bank account. There is already precedent inside and outside the US.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#75

Post by cryoshon »

pjc50 wrote: post #42
Gratsby wrote: post #4

>PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: If, technologically, it is possible to make an impenetrable device or system where the encryption is so strong that there's no key - there's no door at all - then how do we apprehend the child pornographer? How do we solve or disrupt a terrorist plot? It's so disappointing to me to hear a quote like that from the President.

Turn it around: when all communications are compromised to the FBI, how can anyone do any politics that is considered the slightest bit fringe? Always remember that the FBI was against the civil rights movement and MLK. And consider that one of the leading presidential candidates is getting into the habit of inciting violence: http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/the-rage-and-the-derp--2

Government/police types trend heavily Republican, though.

I assume many of them are voting for Trump.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#76

Post by geggam »

winter_blue wrote: post #39
monk_e_boy wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No the weirdest thing is that Apple is standing up to the government. Isn't that just wrong? You, the people choose the government, so in effect Apple is standing up to the people of America and saying 'no'. If you the people didn't want the FBI to be bullish then choose a different government. It feels to me (an outsider) that it's the government that is out of control and is not accountable to the people.

It seems like the country is 50-50 divided on this. But more importantly, individual liberty is more important than majority rule. When the founding fathers created this country, they cared deeply about individual liberty, and worried about a tyranny of the majority. Even if a super-majority wants to deprive an individual or a minority group of its rights, they should not be allowed to. A free country's first commitm…

by definition a democracy is a tyranny of majority.... i think you mean secondary to the republic

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#77

Post by greenisland »

cryoshon wrote: post #75
pjc50 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Turn it around: when all communications are compromised to the FBI, how can anyone do any politics that is considered the slightest bit fringe? Always remember that the FBI was against the civil rights movement and MLK. And consider that one of the leading presidential candidates is getting into the habit of inciting violence: http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/the-rage-and-the-derp--2

Government/police types trend heavily Republican, though. I assume many of them are voting for Trump.

Actually, either far left or far right lean control freak.

Hitler and his Fascist ally, Mussolini, were both far-right contol freaks. Josef Stalin and his predecessors were far left control freaks.

People in power like control, contrary to what they might say. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. People want to be elected because of their egos. Full stop. There is no other reason. No one does it because "they love America". They want to latch onto the gravy train and collect a check all the while dictating terms and or furthering an agenda. It's patently obvious to all.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#78

Post by mSparks »

greenisland wrote: post #77
cryoshon wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government/police types trend heavily Republican, though. I assume many of them are voting for Trump.

Actually, either far left or far right lean control freak. Hitler and his Fascist ally, Mussolini, were both far-right contol freaks. Josef Stalin and his predecessors were far left control freaks. People in power like control, contrary to what they might say. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. People want to be elected because of their egos. Full stop. There is no other reason. No one does it becaus…

In most of Europe "far left" means "not even a little bit of a control freak" and "far right" means "kill anyone you don't like".

And all the politics is what Americans and English call "left wing".

Which is why the likes of Stalin and Hitler are referred to as "right wing", even though their politics was mostly left wing by a US/UK definition.

imho, "control freskishness" is more acurrately captured on a liberal/fascist scale.

Big difference between say Obama and Clinton, while both "left wing" in the sense of "supporting the poor". is Obama is liberal whereas Clinton is bordering on European "far right" fascist to compete with the most well known of them.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#80

Post by emodendroket »

greenisland wrote: post #77
cryoshon wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government/police types trend heavily Republican, though. I assume many of them are voting for Trump.

Actually, either far left or far right lean control freak. Hitler and his Fascist ally, Mussolini, were both far-right contol freaks. Josef Stalin and his predecessors were far left control freaks. People in power like control, contrary to what they might say. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. People want to be elected because of their egos. Full stop. There is no other reason. No one does it becaus…

I think the axes that the political compass (authoritarian-libertarian and economic left/economic right has are, while imperfect, a better way to think about it.
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