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Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

theguardian.com

331–340 of 438 posts

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For a single person, or a small group? I know of no one who believes that. Fair enough. Neither do I. I meant it as a rhetorical question because it's such an absurd thing to think, but I realize that wasn't necessarily clear. > The US military is composed predominately of gun owners :). So is the thinking that people in the military would disobey commands and join the uprising? (Or are you being entirely facetious…

>So is the thinking that people in the military would disobey commands and join the uprising? Yes. tl;have work to do: The knowledge of the potential for large portions of the population to resist oppression by use of small arms is sufficient to deter governments from radical, direct assaults on human rights.

The knowledge of the potential for large portions of the population to resist oppression by use of small arms is sufficient to deter governments from radical, direct assaults on human rights

No it isn't; the US has massive gun ownership and direct assaults on human rights. Especially of nonwhite people. The US never really "signed up to" human rights in the modern (postwar) sense.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#332
post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"who in the world needs an assault rifle?" People interested in self defense. The term "assault rifle" or "assault weapon" was made up by the media. An assault rifle is just your typical rifle that your great grandfather would have used for hunting back in the day. It is not what the media and politicians will lead you to believe. I think what leads people to ask this question is an major misunderstanding that an "as…

What do you need a gun to defend yourself against? In the UK someone did use a gun to "defend" themselves, against two people without guns: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Martin_(farmer)

> What do you need a gun to defend yourself against?

An escaped inmate holding your family hostage? http://www.vicksburgpost.com/2016/03/10/man-killed-following...

A crazy man on a hatchet rampage? http://www.vicksburgpost.com/2016/03/10/man-killed-following...

A violent criminal attacking you in an elevator? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3481507/Woman-leaves...

Of course defensive gun use doesn't fit the anti-gun narrative so it must not happen.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For a single person, or a small group? I know of no one who believes that. Fair enough. Neither do I. I meant it as a rhetorical question because it's such an absurd thing to think, but I realize that wasn't necessarily clear. > The US military is composed predominately of gun owners :). So is the thinking that people in the military would disobey commands and join the uprising? (Or are you being entirely facetious…

It really depends on the circumstances, but I severely doubt that the military would not fracture if it were ordered to attack US citizens.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings ?

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#334
post #50
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> unless we transform our democracy into a totalitarian state The irony is that in totalitarian states terrorism increases, not decreases. Because then even more people have a reason to hate their own totalitarian leaders.

I am not sure that's true. Crime under totalitarian regimes is usually very low, because the level of control and delation makes it almost impossible to get away with it.

What about crime by totalitarian regimes?

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because guns are expressly designed to kill. They serve no other purpose (ignoring sporting uses, as those are basically a proxy for proving how well one can kill with a gun). There is no reason anybody outside of the military needs a gun to carry out their day to day jobs. That isn't true of cars or hospitals.

I'm not sure how being designed to kill changes the risk calculation. Cars are not designed to kill, but they are designed to do something that is inherently dangerous and potentially lethal. The fundamental thing is how much risk is posed, not whether the risk is incidental to the goal or intentional, right? ...I think you are suggesting that people consider the risk of cars acceptable because the risk/reward ratio…

I think I've put my finger on why it doesn't seem to explain things.

Let's say guns were solely about entertainment, no other use. Alcohol is also solely about entertainment, so it should have a similar risk/reward ratio. And in the US, about the same number of people (~10k) die of DUIs every year as die of gun homocide (~10k). Yet alcohol does not raise the same fear and terror in the population as guns. The original article even cited drunk teenagers as something we should not care about when there are people who own guns.

It feels like there must be something else driving the fear and revulsion of guns.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#336
post #232
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It doesn't matter what you own, the government will win every time. You are guaranteed to lose. I think this isn't true if enough people decide to attack the government in concert, say 10% of the population, that's 30 million people. I'm not saying that will ever happen, but American police forces are already stretched to the limit and can be easily tied up. But probably, knives would suffice for that purpose. Or j…

> American police forces are already stretched to the limit and can be easily tied up Which is why state police and then the National Guard and then other branches of the military become involved in any serious unrest. E.g. Ferguson for an extremely recent example. > say 10% of the population Overwhlemingly dispersed throughout suburban and rural populations that are far more easily controlled than a large urban upri…

"Actually, the most ironic thing about this part of the gun debate is that the people who are least persecuted by actual systemic violence against subpopulations of the United States both 1) insist that this violence doesn't exist or is justified; and 2) worry about their own non-existent completely hypothetical persecution at some vague distant point in the future.

All the while, people who are in actually persecuted groups (poor, racial minorities who have double digit odds at incarceration) don't get involved in the gun debate because they know the "standing up to the man" fantasy is dangerous bullshit."

I regret that I have but one upvote to give for this.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#337
post #12

Since this is today's gun argument thread, I'll just point out that the UK is currently commemorating the 20th anniversary of its first and last "mass shooting" incident, at a school in Dunblane, Scotland. The ensuing total ban on handguns and further restriction on gun licensing mean that mass shootings are nonexistant, firearm murders are extremely rare (about one per year in a country of 60m), shooting of suspects…

Then on the other hand we have: Exhibit A) Switzerland, 25 guns for 100 inhabitants, two mass shootings in the last 100 years Exhibit B) France, extremely restrictive gun laws, two mass shootings in less than one year So there's that...

Rather than two events which, however horrible, are an anomaly.

How many mass shootings per year over the last decade? Two decades? And so on?

It's like those who pointed to Australia banning guns after the Port Arthur massacre:

"Homicides went up three per cent the next year! Gun control doesn't work!"

1. "Homicides" encapsulated other methods than "with a gun", and most importantly,

2. Whilst there are 17,000 homicides a year in the US for which a three per cent rise represents over five hundred more deaths, the conveniently omitted fact was that that same three per cent rise in Australia meant that deaths went from 94 to 96, in other words, an anomaly.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an outsider, I've always wondered about this: Since a lot of people in America are so much hell bent on keeping a gun for a hypothetical future situation of government turning hostile (completely ignoring the 'real, actual' killings that are happening very frequently because some psycho got access to what they obtained for their own safety) - will all these people be personally willing to take responsibility and g…

I think it's irresponsible to not take reasonable precautions with guns. I keep mine in a GunVault. But mandating that by law and assigning liability to the owner is a slippery slope. I agree it makes sense with guns, but if someone breaks into my house looking for prescription medicines and I failed to adequately label poison, am I liable? If they ban guns and an armed robber breaks into my house, are the politician…

To this and all such similar analogies, sure, anything can be used to kill, but let's talk about only the things whose primary purpose is to kill. Like Guns. Bombs. Canons. etc.

Now one might argue that the "primary purpose" for them is their safety and not killing, but no, it's not. That is assuming safety by creating a 'threat of getting killed' to the opponent.

I know this punishment is little harsh (and should be decided on per case basis based on the level of negligence) - but we should also agree that if there's no punishment whatsoever - this will continue happening. Mass killings is a real problem that needs to be solved, and most of them get access to guns in their mom's drawers or something like that.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the criminals in the UK that do not obtain any firearm? Someone carrying a cheap pistol is still more heavily armed than someone carrying brass knuckles. I'm not going to go find the facts and figures, still, I'm pretty sure that the incidence of gun crime is higher in the US, pointing out that gun buying criminals in the UK probably buy nicer guns doesn't change that.

> What about the criminals in the UK that do not obtain any firearm? There are likely a greater portion of unarmed criminals in the UK. Since their potential victims are also unarmed, that means that are at the mercy of physically dominating criminals. I fail to see how this is an improvement. > Someone carrying a cheap pistol is still more heavily armed than someone carrying brass knuckles. Practically speaking, a p…

As someone who spent most of their life in the UK, allow me to explain why you are utterly wrong.

> There are likely a greater portion of unarmed criminals in the UK. Since their potential victims are also unarmed, that means that they are at the mercy of physically dominating criminals.

It's certainly true that most criminals in the UK are unarmed, but the "physically dominating" bit is way off the mark because most criminals are not physically dominating - anyone can be a criminal - the factors driving people towards crime have nothing to do with physical stature. This means that the majority of criminals are actually not particularly threatening, I have a friend who was mugged and simply picked up his assailant and threw him over a wall, another just laughed in the face of the teenager who threatened to mug him and walked off. Pepper spray and some knowledge of self defence will make you well prepared to handle the vast majority of criminals in the UK.

> Practically speaking, a person with a 6" knife can do far more damage to a person and have a higher likelihood of inflicting a mortal wound than someone with a .38 revolver.

First of all, knifes are also tightly controlled in the UK, though obviously smaller knifes are not particularly hard to come by. No doubt a skilful knife wielder can do a lot of damage to a person, but most criminals also are not skilful. At all. An inept gun wielder of any physical stature can effortlessly kill someone from yards away, in an instant. It's so easy, a toddler can do it. Also it's a lot harder to accidentally stab someone than to accidentally shoot them. Furthermore, those so inclined can (and do) learn how to fendoff a knife attack - you can't do that with a gun attack.

> my entire point is that more restrictions means that it's in the best interest of an armed criminal to obtain the most effective firearm possible.

That's completely backwards. You could hold up pretty much anywhere in the UK using a fake gun or an air rifle. There's absolutely no need for criminals to have actual weapons when their victims and the police too, are unarmed, because they pose no threat. Contrast this with the non-restrictive environment in the US where an unarmed or poorly armed criminal risks being shot by their victim, a responder, or the police. I live in the US now and my local ATM has an armed guard for crying out loud. That's an incredible incentive for criminals to turn up very well armed.

> rates don't really factor in to this thread

Oh but they do, because criminals with guns don't just wave them around for show: they use them. The per-capita homicide rate in the US is 5x higher than the UK and that difference is almost entirely composed of gun crime [1]. Take a moment to think about that.

So in conclusion, the U.K. is much, much safer because criminals don't have access to lethal weapons that are effortlessly easy to use and the statistics spell this out as clear as day.

[1] http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34996604

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a good point. I think it's ingrained in American culture (and the Constitution) that part of the purpose of personal gun ownership is to curb governmental power. How can gun control be justified when police are roaming around like a para-military group?

I completely agree that the "curb government power" is a common argument for gun ownership in the US. However, I've never understood the logic behind it. Do people really think their handgun is going to help them resist a predator drone strike? The US military is vastly more powerful than any gun owner. Do people really think they can compete? What's more, advocates of legal gun ownership often also push for more mil…

The US military is primarily designed for one task: dominating other nation-states militarily. It struggles with heavily armed insurgent populations.
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