Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do • Hacker News Board

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#261

Post by pjc50 » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 3:20 PM UTC

forgetsusername wrote: post #113

TallGuyShort wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> police are not routinely armed I'm a gun owner and this is the key point for me. No politician is in a position to tell me I don't need my semi-automatic pistol if every day I see a patrol car go by my house with 2 fully automatic AR-15s locked between the front seats and my local police department owns an armoured vehicle. If you really think you have a plan for getting rid of guns for bad guys as well as me, pro…

This is a good point. I think it's ingrained in American culture (and the Constitution) that part of the purpose of personal gun ownership is to curb governmental power. How can gun control be justified when police are roaming around like a para-military group?

the purpose of personal gun ownership is to curb governmental power

No, that's what the legal system is for. The idea of trying to have some sort of legal right to political violence (terrorism) is bonkers. Maybe it comes from the Lost Cause or something.

The AR-15 has been mentioned in a couple of places in this thread. It has rather different connotations in the UK, being one of the favoured weapons of the IRA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_Irish_Republican_A...

(The Troubles seems like the exact nightmare scenario pro-gun people talk about when they talk of armed resistance to the government firing on demonstrators, coming round to the houses of dissidents in the middle of the night, etc., and yet I've never seen it discussed)

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#262

Post by marrs » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 3:21 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #196

marrs wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just google "gun crime rates in the UK". All the stats I've seen, and what I've been lead to believe in the news, is that gun crime rates have dramatically increased since the handgun ban (and illegal gun ownership has also increased). That's not to imply cause and effect, but I don't see any evidence that the handgun ban did anything to curb gun crime. Licensing rules were already very stringent at the time - you ju…

what I've been lead to believe in the news I think I found the problem. Dunblane was a freak incident in the UK , but would be a regular occurence in the US. http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/dec/02/mass-shooting... The mass shooting phenomenon seems to be a side effect of US culture's relationship with violence, and especially "righteous" violence.

I was referring specifically to the situation in the UK because this is what the GP was talking about. I don't know enough about US culture to be able to comment on the issues faced there. I can only say that US citizens appear to have a comfort with firearms that makes me uneasy.

But again, a lot of my understanding on this subject comes from the media, so you can take it with a pinch of salt if you like.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#263

Post by alistairSH » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 3:22 PM UTC

theworstshill wrote: post #206

alistairSH wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because guns are expressly designed to kill. They serve no other purpose (ignoring sporting uses, as those are basically a proxy for proving how well one can kill with a gun). There is no reason anybody outside of the military needs a gun to carry out their day to day jobs. That isn't true of cars or hospitals.

>Because guns are expressly designed to kill. And whats wrong with that? There are always two sides to every situation, a party that is bend on taking away someone's assets (possibly life) and another party defending that.

Nothing is wrong with it. Guns have their place. I was just answering the question - "why do people react differently to guns than cars?" Because guns are fundamentally different.

I'm not personally opposed to gun ownership. I think we need better regulation of guns, though I don't really have any answers (and certainly none that are viable in today's political climate).

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#264

Post by zeveb » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 3:22 PM UTC

alistairSH wrote: post #83

neonhomer wrote: post #61

I always hate these kind of articles. As a US citizen there's only rule when it comes to firearms and that's the 2nd Amendment: "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." Until a new Amendment is passed to revoke this individual right, all arguments are invalid.

So, we should all be allowed to own bazookas and nukes and aircraft carriers? Because, if this is about securing the state (either against a tyrannical government, or a 3rd party), rifles and handguns aren't going to cut it. Or, are you limiting your interpretation to firearms in common use at the time of the Constitutional Convention? In which case, you can turn in your Glock and your AK. Point being, we already hav…

> So, we should all be allowed to own bazookas and nukes and aircraft carriers?

Yes, of course. You'll need quite a bit of money to buy the second two and comply with safety regulations, though …

There is an argument that the 2nd Amendment only covers personal weapons, e.g. rifles, pistols, swords, knives, bazookas &c. I don't find it fully persuasive, but I don't really feel strongly enough about the issue to spend all my time arguing about whether nukes should be legal: I'm far more concerned about things like firearms, knife & sword bans.

Edit: s/too/two/

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#265

Post by LyndsySimon » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 3:22 PM UTC

kamjam wrote: post #88

adwf wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, quite the opposite, gun deaths of all sorts are down substantially. Less than half what they used to be. And Dunblane wasn't a freak incident here's one from 1987: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungerford_massacre Here's some data. Very clear downward trends since 1997. http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compareyears/192/rate_of_a... http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compareyears/192/rate_of_g... Here's the Aust…

The reference to the Australia stats reminds me of the Jim Jefferies sketch on Gun Control. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rR9IaXH1M0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9UFyNy-rw4

Sounds good to me so far.

"Fuck off. I like guns!"

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#266

Post by adwf » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 3:24 PM UTC

marrs wrote: post #255

adwf wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, quite the opposite, gun deaths of all sorts are down substantially. Less than half what they used to be. And Dunblane wasn't a freak incident here's one from 1987: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungerford_massacre Here's some data. Very clear downward trends since 1997. http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compareyears/192/rate_of_a... http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compareyears/192/rate_of_g... Here's the Aust…

Uhm, that graph shows the gun crime rate going up directly after the handgun ban, not down. That doesn't say to me that banning handguns reduced gun crime. Here's another graph showing the same thing, and another one below showing a correlation in the reduction of gun crime to an increase of policing resources. http://crimeresearch.org/2013/12/murder-and-homicide-rates-b... Not to mention that of course "gun crime /…

You must be wearing some funny glasses, I see a very clear downward trend from left to right over all those charts. And that chart you just linked is the very same one that was completely debunked earlier in the thread and still shows a consistent long term downward trend...

It's not irrelevant as a large number of firearms were unlicensed. There were a ton of old service guns lying in peoples attics completely unregistered. It takes time to enforce a law.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#267

Post by zeveb » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 3:26 PM UTC

LyndsySimon wrote: post #155

rwj wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that kind of the point? Americans can't decide if they want new laws or to amend the constitution before deciding what the ideal would be. Your point is to shut down discussion before they get that far. In any case, IANAL but the US has not been crippled by absolutism in the pass. There are limits to free speech, for example (defamation, libel, fire!). Are you sure that stricter background checks would be found…

> There are limits to free speech, for example (defamation, libel, fire!) Those are limitations on the improper use of speech, not on merely possessing the means to communicate. > Are you sure that stricter background checks would be found unconstitutional? Found unconstitutional? I'm not at all sure of that, as the judicial system doesn't lend itself well to prediction. Would they be unconstitutional? Yes, without a…

> > Are you sure that stricter background checks would be found unconstitutional?

> Would they be unconstitutional? Yes, without a doubt.

I don't really think so. The State has the power to deprive citizens of their rights — to include their right to life — so long as it observes due process, so it has the ability to deny firearms ownership to e.g. felons (otherwise one would argue that the 2nd Amendment protects the right to arms of prisoners …). I think that it can require sellers to check whether or not someone is permitted to receive an item before transferring it.

I just don't know that this is particularly effective. Honestly, weapons crime is not a problem of weapons: it's a problem of criminals.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#268

Post by pjc50 » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 3:27 PM UTC

Nadya wrote: post #245

optimuspaul wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh, what's wrong with me then. I absolutely do not need a gun, ever. Nobody needs a gun. If you think you need a gun then you have serious problems. Let's talk about basic human needs. Food, water, Air, and to a lesser extent clothing and shelter. You don't need a gun for any of those things. Sure a gun can help with food, but guess what, you don't even need to eat meat, there are so many other sources of food. So n…

Sometimes serious problems are external. For example, 1911 Turkey, 1929 Soviet Russia, 1938 Germany, 1964 Guatemala, and 1970 Uganda. I'm sure plenty of citizens would have preferred to have had a gun in the years shortly after the bans.

1970s Northern Ireland?

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#269

Post by zeveb » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 3:28 PM UTC

TallGuyShort wrote: post #260

zeveb wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In many European countries, police officers are only minimally armed (just a handgun, used only in rare circumstances). And yet when I've been in Europe I've seen plenty of police and/or paramilitary units carrying submachine guns, something I never saw here in the U.S. even after 11 September.

Curious, as I haven't been to Europe - were these at border posts? Public transit hubs? Anything else?

I've seen them walking around in train stations, airports, public squares and on the sidewalk. Remarkable from an American perspective.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#270

Post by adwf » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 3:29 PM UTC

rsync wrote: post #250

adwf wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah that's an excellent sketch. I think he really does touch on an important point, the only good reason to have guns is because they're fun. Self defense is nonsense and protection from government is even more nonsense nowadays. I'm actually fairly pro-gun (for the UK at least), I think we're quite restrictive on the type of guns allowed (eg. larger calibre rifles would be fun down a range). But at the same time I'…

"Yeah that's an excellent sketch. I think he really does touch on an important point, the only good reason to have guns is because they're fun. Self defense is nonsense and protection from government is even more nonsense nowadays." You're completely overlooking (dismissing ?) animal husbandry and predator control for livestock, etc. Depending on your location, a rifle (or three) is absolutely necessary to protect an…

Yeah, sorry. Work guns are the exception. They're the exception in the UK also.

However, the vast majority of firearms sold are not for farming purposes. Agricultural jobs make up ~1% of the US workforce, yet there's over 1 gun per person. It's a bit of a red herring to talk about it though; no-one is advocating complete gun bans, but sensible gun control.