Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do • Hacker News Board

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#121

Post by anexprogrammer » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 1:59 PM UTC

Loque wrote: post #92

anexprogrammer wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You forgot the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungerford_massacre in 1987 where 16 people were killed. Both events lead to changes in firearm licensing rules, and in both cases if the existing rules had been correctly enforced, it's doubtful either person would have held a licence. EDIT: And https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumbria_shootings in 2010 10 dead, 11 injured.

It appears everything was correctly enforced? He went through the appropriate channels - filled in the correct forms, and appeared sane at the time of application. I guess another question would be, why on earth would anyone need _any_ of those guns.

There was a lot of discussion at the time, and my recollection is he was already known to mental health services. The Sun et al had him painted as a rabid survivalist of course. Wiki seems to say it was retrospective diagnosis, so I'm not sure...

I can understand wanting to collect, or at least try, different types, but who in the world needs an assault rifle?

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#122

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 1:59 PM UTC

Loque wrote: post #101

greenisland wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one but scared liberals want "gun control". Freedom-loving Americans want elected officials to enforce the existing laws, not create new ones out of fear. Registration is the first step to disarmament. Look back no further than Janet Reno, thankfully no longer in her position, who famously said that the actual goal is disarmament of the population. A certain venomous Democrat presidential hopeful has also echoed t…

> Why on Earth would anyone vote for someone who wants to take away freedoms enshrined in the Constitution? Because it is adjusted as we develop and learn more about the world we live in, it has happened in the past, and I sincerely hope it continues to happen. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Constitution#Rat...

[deleted]

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#123

Post by valine » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 1:59 PM UTC

jernfrost wrote: post #102

valine wrote: post #85

Gun ownership is less about protecting individuals from other individuals, and more about protecting our society from governments that want to oppress it. You could make the argument that no such power exists today, but that's besides the point. Powerful, oppressive, nations have existed before and they could exist again. An armed population is our last line of defense.

That is actually an extremely weak argument. Iraq had higher gun ownership than the US, and yet they were all under an oppressive dictator. There are actually several oppressive countries with high gun ownership. A bunch of armed citizens does not make an effective army. Untrained and uncoordinated citizens are no match against well trained soldiers. Very few armed resistance fights have succeeded in bringing democra…

I've noticed that too. The trend of right wing gun activists to support increased survalence. It's an odd issue that seems to draw support from both political parties. President Obama has made his stance on privacy and survalence pretty clear. Ironicically it's the same stance that most of the republican candidates are taking.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#124

Post by ikeboy » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 2:00 PM UTC

1. The source for this article is http://www.snopes.com/toddlers-killed-americans-terrorists/, which says

>Broad counts indicate that 21 toddlers shot and killed themselves or others in 2015; 19 Americans died at the hands of potential or suspected Islamic terrorists.

Even taken at face value, that's 21 to 19.

That page is itself a bit confusing. They count the number of deaths by Islamic terrorists while evaluating a claim that merely says foreign terrorists. The guardian then spins that into terrorists, not specifying foreigners. Glancing over https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_J... and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_J... turns up the following:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charleston_church_shooting, 9 dead https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_Springs_Planned_Paren..., 3 dead

Neither seem to be by foreigners, so snopes is not wrong, just confusing. The guardian is flat out wrong. The numbers are 9+3+19=31 versus 21 for toddlers.

2. The fear of terrorism is of the tail. People aren't that worried over the 10 people who die in an attack, comparatively. They're worried about the 3000 people that die for a large scale attack, even if it's less likely.

I bet if you took the last 25 years, terrorist deaths would be more than toddler gun deaths. If the latter is around 25 a year, we have a total of 625, versus 3000 from 9/11 alone.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#125

Post by amelius » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 2:01 PM UTC

TallGuyShort wrote: post #103

pjc50 wrote: post #12

Since this is today's gun argument thread, I'll just point out that the UK is currently commemorating the 20th anniversary of its first and last "mass shooting" incident, at a school in Dunblane, Scotland. The ensuing total ban on handguns and further restriction on gun licensing mean that mass shootings are nonexistant, firearm murders are extremely rare (about one per year in a country of 60m), shooting of suspects…

>> police are not routinely armed I'm a gun owner and this is the key point for me. No politician is in a position to tell me I don't need my semi-automatic pistol if every day I see a patrol car go by my house with 2 fully automatic AR-15s locked between the front seats and my local police department owns an armoured vehicle. If you really think you have a plan for getting rid of guns for bad guys as well as me, pro…

I guess this amounts to a chicken-and-egg problem. In many European countries, police officers are only minimally armed (just a handgun, used only in rare circumstances).

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#126

Post by geggam » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 2:01 PM UTC

Loque wrote: post #110

AI_Overlord wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gov gone crazy is not as unlikely as you think. It may only seem that way because of our short lifespan.

Maybe this is subjective, I personally do not think it will happen in the UK. I would also rather take that risk than allow everyone to own guns just for this unknown eventuality... If it assures you in anyway, my grandfather who was in the war, handed in his 1911.

All that tells me is you forget the lessons others have learned the hard way.

Experience is a dear teacher but fools will learn no other way.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#127

Post by jcromartie » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 2:02 PM UTC

TallGuyShort wrote: post #103

pjc50 wrote: post #12

Since this is today's gun argument thread, I'll just point out that the UK is currently commemorating the 20th anniversary of its first and last "mass shooting" incident, at a school in Dunblane, Scotland. The ensuing total ban on handguns and further restriction on gun licensing mean that mass shootings are nonexistant, firearm murders are extremely rare (about one per year in a country of 60m), shooting of suspects…

>> police are not routinely armed I'm a gun owner and this is the key point for me. No politician is in a position to tell me I don't need my semi-automatic pistol if every day I see a patrol car go by my house with 2 fully automatic AR-15s locked between the front seats and my local police department owns an armoured vehicle. If you really think you have a plan for getting rid of guns for bad guys as well as me, pro…

And part of the reason why cops are armed to the teeth is because the citizens are. It would require real total mutual disarmament of citizens and police to change anything in the USA.

So I don't see it changing any time soon.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#128

Post by agarden » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 2:02 PM UTC

jernfrost wrote: post #109

agarden wrote: post #76

What interests me about the gun debate (if one can call it that), is that there are ways of dying that are considered acceptable risks and ways of dying that are not. If you are driving your kids across town and get t-boned by a drunk driver and everyone dies, that is considered a tragedy. But no one will advocate giving up driving. Something really bad happened, everyone move on with your lives. Or when a relative d…

So sick of replying to this sort of logic. Nobody says we should GIVE UP guns. We are talking about regulating. Just like the dam car you used in your retarded analogy. WHY is the car strictly regulated in the US like anywhere else, but NOT the gun!!!??? Are guns somehow way safer than cars? Pretty much anything which is dangerous is regulated. I mean McDonalds even has to put a sticker on your cup, stating it is hot…

I am not trying to make an argument. I am trying to understand why people react the way they do to different risks.

I said banning guns because that is what the Guardian article was arguing for, or seemed to be.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#129

Post by AI_Overlord » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 2:02 PM UTC

Loque wrote: post #110

AI_Overlord wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gov gone crazy is not as unlikely as you think. It may only seem that way because of our short lifespan.

Maybe this is subjective, I personally do not think it will happen in the UK. I would also rather take that risk than allow everyone to own guns just for this unknown eventuality... If it assures you in anyway, my grandfather who was in the war, handed in his 1911.

The thing is, when the gov goes crazy it is usually against some group of people. If you are not part of that group then you may actually believe the gov is quite sane.

Also, all it takes is some really bad times for nice people to elect a tyrant. We've seen it before many times in history.

Trump phenomenon fueled on xenophobia, racism, and authoritarianism, which is scary for minorities, is an example of a gov that could go crazy.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#130

Post by talmand » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 2:03 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #59

jjoonathan wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it worked out quite the way you said: http://crimeresearch.org/2013/12/murder-and-homicide-rates-b... Obligatory un-zeroed-axis warning, but the point stands.

As soon as I saw John Lott, I knew I was going to be dealing with one-sided data. But I'm having trouble replicating that graph from https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachm... It did point out that I was wrong about no mass shootings (p57): "In 2010/11, the police provisionally recorded 642 offences of homicide, which includes the 12 people killed by Derrick Bird in June 2010. Homicide offences i…

I've seen numerous times people complaining that crime statistics are recorded differently from country to country and the differences being used strategically to prove an argument. I've seen such spikes used to prove and disprove the same arguments before.