Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do • Hacker News Board

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#101

Post by Loque » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 1:45 PM UTC

greenisland wrote: post #72

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know anyone who is pro-gun that is going to give up his gun as long as there is a terrorism threat to his family and country. Politicians need to squelch the terrorism war chanting if they ever want any form of gun control to pass in the U.S.

No one but scared liberals want "gun control". Freedom-loving Americans want elected officials to enforce the existing laws, not create new ones out of fear. Registration is the first step to disarmament. Look back no further than Janet Reno, thankfully no longer in her position, who famously said that the actual goal is disarmament of the population. A certain venomous Democrat presidential hopeful has also echoed t…

> Why on Earth would anyone vote for someone who wants to take away freedoms enshrined in the Constitution?

Because it is adjusted as we develop and learn more about the world we live in, it has happened in the past, and I sincerely hope it continues to happen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Constitution#Rat...

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#102

Post by jernfrost » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 1:45 PM UTC

valine wrote: post #85

Gun ownership is less about protecting individuals from other individuals, and more about protecting our society from governments that want to oppress it. You could make the argument that no such power exists today, but that's besides the point. Powerful, oppressive, nations have existed before and they could exist again. An armed population is our last line of defense.

That is actually an extremely weak argument. Iraq had higher gun ownership than the US, and yet they were all under an oppressive dictator. There are actually several oppressive countries with high gun ownership.

A bunch of armed citizens does not make an effective army. Untrained and uncoordinated citizens are no match against well trained soldiers.

Very few armed resistance fights have succeeded in bringing democracy or freedom anywhere. More often than not it has been non-violent resistance which has succeeded.

In most cases when violence gets involved it is the wrong kind of people who end up on the top of the pecking order and you end up with an equally bad or worse regime in the end. We've seen this in the french revolutions, south american revolutions, various revolutions and independent fights across Asia and Africa, and more lately the Arab spring.

Freedom of speech, privacy etc is more important for keeping a country free than gun laws. If you have no free press, society will have advanced too far in the wrong direction before you can make a difference with your gun.

Ironically the same right wing people supporting gun rights, seem to not care a lick about privacy, surveillance, excessive police mandates or draconian laws.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#103

Post by TallGuyShort » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 1:45 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #12

Since this is today's gun argument thread, I'll just point out that the UK is currently commemorating the 20th anniversary of its first and last "mass shooting" incident, at a school in Dunblane, Scotland. The ensuing total ban on handguns and further restriction on gun licensing mean that mass shootings are nonexistant, firearm murders are extremely rare (about one per year in a country of 60m), shooting of suspects…

>> police are not routinely armed

I'm a gun owner and this is the key point for me. No politician is in a position to tell me I don't need my semi-automatic pistol if every day I see a patrol car go by my house with 2 fully automatic AR-15s locked between the front seats and my local police department owns an armoured vehicle. If you really think you have a plan for getting rid of guns for bad guys as well as me, prove it. Demilitarize the police at the same time.

edit: To be fair, I think such a plan is possible, but it requires fixing other problems that too many politicians are afraid to touch. It's obviously been done successfully elsewhere, but only when cultures and geographies were more ready for it. I enjoy shooting and prefer to own a gun, but I'd give them up for a plan I thought would work. I just haven't seen one proposed in the US yet.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#104

Post by saiya-jin » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 1:46 PM UTC

ascagnel_ wrote: post #51

saiya-jin wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

unless it's a mosquito with malaria or dengue :) (aka terrorist with nuclear/dirty bomb). terrorism is, above all, politically motivated theatrical act that should manipulate audience into something (fear and thus irrational behavior, election choices etc). plus some stray dogs that are out of any reasonable control. we humans are vastly irrational, and just because mankind landed on the moon doesn't mean emotions do…

The moon landing was a tool to create a different emotion, though. It was to stir up some national pride and put a happy face on the rocket tech that nearly led to a total nuclear annihilation during the cold war.

what I meant that we can achieve amazing stuff as mankind (especially with 60's tech), but still be completely irrational redneck-style when emotions kick in

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#105

Post by ck2 » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 1:47 PM UTC

valine wrote: post #85

Gun ownership is less about protecting individuals from other individuals, and more about protecting our society from governments that want to oppress it. You could make the argument that no such power exists today, but that's besides the point. Powerful, oppressive, nations have existed before and they could exist again. An armed population is our last line of defense.

It's interesting you think you own something that is going to stop a SWAT team from entering your home and executing you because they determined you have a gun and might be a threat while serving a completely legal search warrant.

If they didn't see you with a gun they might not have acted with a dozen cops rushing the door but now you've escalated yourself into a threat in their eye, legit or not.

You are already being oppressed by the NSA sharing domestic data with the FBI, your gun will do zero to stop that.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#106

Post by JustSomeNobody » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 1:47 PM UTC

LyndsySimon wrote: post #98

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know anyone who is pro-gun that is going to give up his gun as long as there is a terrorism threat to his family and country. Politicians need to squelch the terrorism war chanting if they ever want any form of gun control to pass in the U.S.

I am quite pro-gun, and terrorism doesn't even register on the reasons why. I believe the same could be said of most everyone I know in that community. It's not about fear; it's primarily about a worldview that centers on individuality and distrust of government.

It was really meant more tongue in cheek than it came across. Politicians just need to stop with the terrorism war chanting, period.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#107

Post by throwaway049 » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 1:48 PM UTC

Loque wrote: post #22

geggam wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UK govt does kill its citizens though. Without trial. The restrictions of guns by the government ensures you have no defense from the one entity that has killed more people than anything. Their own govt. http://blogs.ft.com/david-allen-green/2015/09/08/when-does-t...

Get real. Or a tin foil hat. I am mid thirties, grown up in the UK and not having guns here is amazing. People don't get shot, as a teenager in the council flats in the UK, no-one is going to turn up with a gun, or carry a gun. And unsurprisingly, people make mistakes with guns (accidents happen). I have been forever conflicted, as I love the idea of guns, I wanted them as a kid/teenager, the idea of having such a to…

Shootings are not rare here, but fatal shootings are rare. Here's a link from the same source [0] to a non fatal shooting last night in London.

[0] http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/mar/15/brixton-shoot...

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#108

Post by lukeasrodgers » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 1:49 PM UTC

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #13

> Growing up here myself didn’t prepare me for how distinctly, viscerally frightening it would be to raise children in a gun-obsessed nation. All arguments aside, this is just... really? I mean, come on.

As a Canadian raising a small child in America, I echo the sentiment expressed by the author. It may be slightly irrational (e.g. statistically I should be more afraid of my kid getting hit by a car), but I don't think the author is just intentionally sensationalizing. When you don't grow up around guns, and regularly hear news stories about kids accidentally or intentionally shooting each other/family members, it is quite concerning.

EDIT I deleted a line about poor healthcare in America being a greater risk than guns because it was not necessary to the point I was making and possibly inflammatory.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#109

Post by jernfrost » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 1:49 PM UTC

agarden wrote: post #76

What interests me about the gun debate (if one can call it that), is that there are ways of dying that are considered acceptable risks and ways of dying that are not. If you are driving your kids across town and get t-boned by a drunk driver and everyone dies, that is considered a tragedy. But no one will advocate giving up driving. Something really bad happened, everyone move on with your lives. Or when a relative d…

So sick of replying to this sort of logic. Nobody says we should GIVE UP guns. We are talking about regulating. Just like the dam car you used in your retarded analogy. WHY is the car strictly regulated in the US like anywhere else, but NOT the gun!!!???

Are guns somehow way safer than cars?

Pretty much anything which is dangerous is regulated. I mean McDonalds even has to put a sticker on your cup, stating it is hot. Somehow hot coffee gets stricter regulation in the US than guns. That is totally backwards and it just boggles the mind of the rest of us why so many Americans are so dense they can't see this.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#110

Post by Loque » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 1:49 PM UTC

AI_Overlord wrote: post #94

Loque wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Get real. Or a tin foil hat. I am mid thirties, grown up in the UK and not having guns here is amazing. People don't get shot, as a teenager in the council flats in the UK, no-one is going to turn up with a gun, or carry a gun. And unsurprisingly, people make mistakes with guns (accidents happen). I have been forever conflicted, as I love the idea of guns, I wanted them as a kid/teenager, the idea of having such a to…

Gov gone crazy is not as unlikely as you think. It may only seem that way because of our short lifespan.

Maybe this is subjective, I personally do not think it will happen in the UK. I would also rather take that risk than allow everyone to own guns just for this unknown eventuality...

If it assures you in anyway, my grandfather who was in the war, handed in his 1911.