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Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

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Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#41

Post by davorb »

icebraining wrote: post #31
mozumder wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll find the people value security more than privacy. This is why conspiracy to commit crime is already illegal. That's just how society is. Your choice on whether you want to live with the rest of society or not.

Polls show more support for Apple's position than for the FBI's, so I'm not sure your argument regarding the position of society is very convincing: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-encryption-poll-idUS... Just making conspiracy illegal doesn't mean you don't value privacy; it depends on what means are permissible to obtain evidence for the conspiracy.

If you believe in the concept of natural rights, then it doesn't matter what polls show. Privacy is a fundamental human right, and neither government nor mob has any authority to impinge upon that right.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#42

Post by pjc50 »

Gratsby wrote: post #4

>PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: If, technologically, it is possible to make an impenetrable device or system where the encryption is so strong that there's no key - there's no door at all - then how do we apprehend the child pornographer? How do we solve or disrupt a terrorist plot? It's so disappointing to me to hear a quote like that from the President.

Turn it around: when all communications are compromised to the FBI, how can anyone do any politics that is considered the slightest bit fringe?

Always remember that the FBI was against the civil rights movement and MLK. And consider that one of the leading presidential candidates is getting into the habit of inciting violence: http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/the-rage-and-the-derp--2

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#43

Post by anexprogrammer »

mozumder wrote: post #13
Gratsby wrote: post #4

>PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: If, technologically, it is possible to make an impenetrable device or system where the encryption is so strong that there's no key - there's no door at all - then how do we apprehend the child pornographer? How do we solve or disrupt a terrorist plot? It's so disappointing to me to hear a quote like that from the President.

So how DO you disrupt criminal plots, then? Do you allow people to conspire to commit crimes? You're going to find, that once you think it through, that you'll end up limiting the rights and freedoms of individuals... there's no getting around that. Life sucks that way. People were never their own little countries. I just feel sorry for the middle-class suckers that thought they had freedom. Poor guys - they never fi…

You suspect someone of a crime, get a little evidence, get a warrant, then surveil them. If they are using some difficult to monitor communication method you have to get creative. There's good reasons the system developed to be that way.

People TALK about killing far more than ever seriosuly think about or have the personality to actually do. Bad humour, frustration at work or with partner, or even how to make a bomb or commit a terrorist act (oh al quaida are stupid because, it would make more sense to do x, y then z) can all be topics of conversation amongst law abiding people after a few beers.

So are we happy to move the bar to innocent until silly enough to have discussed robbing a bank? Innocent until found to have mentioned the current taboo issue? Plenty of people have found out the hard way that the TSA, Twitter and airports aren't a great mix for jokes.

I say again, there's good reasons the system sought the evidence first, not retrospective police fishing expeditions.

"It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer". Sir William Blackstone 1765.

I see nothing in the new technologies to fault or change those priciples. The only thing that has changed is scale.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#44

Post by ohyeshedid »

ptaipale wrote: post #8
jacquesm wrote: post #2

> No, David. If I were in the job now, I would have simply told the FBI to call Fort Meade, the headquarters of the National Security Agency, and NSA would have solved this problem for them. They're not as interested in solving the problem as they are in getting a legal precedent. That's quite the quote, especially given his history of employment. The weirdest thing about this whole cell-phone saga to me is that the…

> the perps are dead, did not appear to be part of some organized group A reasonable reason for inquiry here is to actually try to make sure if they were part of some organized group. "Appear not to be" is not quite enough. This is a valid reason to investigate even if they are dead. How did they get radicalized, etc. Not that it is a good enough reason to enforce breaking of encryption in the way proposed, but in a…

If this was really about the privacy of the perps; an NSL would've been enough and we'd never know about it. This is about setting precedent, and as publicly as possible.

If the feds get their way the entire idea of encryption is weakened, and not just for the lawful citizens. I suspect the reason for having this battle so publicly is propaganda based, just as it was with Zimmermann in the 90's.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#45

Post by Odin78 »

Jafit wrote: post #10
Gratsby wrote: post #4

>PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: If, technologically, it is possible to make an impenetrable device or system where the encryption is so strong that there's no key - there's no door at all - then how do we apprehend the child pornographer? How do we solve or disrupt a terrorist plot? It's so disappointing to me to hear a quote like that from the President.

Its fine though, because if you make something illegal then criminals won't use it.

The thing is: if encryption is illegal and you encrypt your illegal material so law enforcement can't convict you for it, they can still convict you for using encryption.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#46

Post by DanielBMarkham »

masklinn wrote: post #38
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it happens, it'll become precedent, then all countries will want to do it. The next logical step is to outlaw phones and devices that are incapable of breaking into. Then they'll make it so you need a license to employ cryptography. It sounds crazy, but where we are right now would have sounded just as crazy 15 years ago.

> The next logical step is to outlaw phones and devices that are incapable of breaking into. Then they'll make it so you need a license to employ cryptography. Welcome to the 90s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Export_of_cryptography_from_th... [0] > It sounds crazy, but where we are right now would have sounded just as crazy 15 years ago. Hardly. 15 years ago, the US were just barely past their encryption export ban,…

I read the "we're back to the 90s again" articles. I think I would be careful not to overstate the case. I coded in the 90s. I did light crypto in the 90s. This isn't the 90s.

The world was so different then that the analogy wears thin. It was mostly client-server, the web was just taking off, and vast cloud server farms weren't even on the horizon. As you noted, the laws back then weren't for creating crypto -- it was for exporting it. At least in the states, we saw a healthy market for all sorts of new crypto tech: DES, AES, and RSA started in the 90s. (RSA became public in the 90s).

Note that I'm talking from the viewpoint of the average developer making applications. The business side, the international side, and the exporting mess? Yes, it's very similar. My comment was about changes Joe Dev is seeing now. The 90s was "write it, but only sell it locally", the 2020s are likely to be "don't write it unless you have permission", which is a completely different can of worms.

Agreed that the development community as a whole is still recovering from the 90s. The damage we're doing right now will take as long or longer to recover from, if we ever do.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#47

Post by Mtinie »

mobiuscog wrote: post #34
lazaroclapp wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So how DO you disrupt criminal plots, then? Do you allow people to conspire to commit crimes? Suppose they meet in person to conspire. Would you suggest having every citizen carry un-blockeable microphones just in case? This is not a "my freedom to swing my fist ends where your nose begins" kinda issue, this is "are we willing to build a police state if it reduced the risk of certain crimes by X%? Even at the cost…

>But actually, an ankle bracelet that reports your location and audio might actually be less invasive of your private conversations in today's world that reporting the contents of your phone. Not at all. I have the choice to carry / use a phone.

Today you do. This may not be the case in the future.

We have no idea what the political and technical landscapes will look like in 5, 15, or 25 years. It is not inconceivable that your governmental identification "card" will morph from the plastic of today into an embedded device in the phones of tomorrow.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#48

Post by Umn44 »

Gratsby wrote: post #4

>PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: If, technologically, it is possible to make an impenetrable device or system where the encryption is so strong that there's no key - there's no door at all - then how do we apprehend the child pornographer? How do we solve or disrupt a terrorist plot? It's so disappointing to me to hear a quote like that from the President.

"It's so disappointing to me to hear a quote like that from the President."

Then you need to get informed how democracy works...

Our brains are much worse at reality and thinking than thought. AKA we can be manipulated to believe things against our interest. Science on reasoning:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYmi0DLzBdQ

"Intended as an internal document. Good reading to understand the nature of rich democracies and the fact that the common people are not allowed to play a role."

Crisis of democracy

http://trilateral.org/download/doc/crisis_of_democracy.pdf

http://www.amazon.com/Crisis-Democracy-Governability-Democra...

Democracy Inc.

http://www.amazon.com/Democracy-Incorporated-Managed-Inverte...

Testing theories of representative government

https://scholar.princeton.edu/sites/default/files/mgilens/fi...

Protectionism for the rich and big business by state intervention, radical market interference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHj2GaPuEhY#t=349

Energy subsidies

https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/survey/so/2015/NEW07021...

Manufacturing consent:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwU56Rv0OXM

https://vimeo.com/39566117

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#49

Post by whyever »

davorb wrote: post #41
icebraining wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Polls show more support for Apple's position than for the FBI's, so I'm not sure your argument regarding the position of society is very convincing: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-encryption-poll-idUS... Just making conspiracy illegal doesn't mean you don't value privacy; it depends on what means are permissible to obtain evidence for the conspiracy.

If you believe in the concept of natural rights, then it doesn't matter what polls show. Privacy is a fundamental human right, and neither government nor mob has any authority to impinge upon that right.

You can justify anything with "natural rights".

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#50

Post by dec0dedab0de »

jacquesm wrote: post #2

> No, David. If I were in the job now, I would have simply told the FBI to call Fort Meade, the headquarters of the National Security Agency, and NSA would have solved this problem for them. They're not as interested in solving the problem as they are in getting a legal precedent. That's quite the quote, especially given his history of employment. The weirdest thing about this whole cell-phone saga to me is that the…

I think it's all an act to make people think apple phones are more secure than they actually are.
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