Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism • Hacker News Board

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#21

Post by DanielBMarkham » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 9:37 AM UTC

BBlarat wrote: post #18

ck2 wrote: post #3

Other governments are definitely going to force manufacturers to make their phones unlockable or not for sale in their country. China, Russia, Saudia Arabia, all forced Blackberry to turn over their encryption keys long ago. US politicians should set an example and say we are NOT going to be like China and Russia and other repressive regimes and that when people's lives are literally on their phones, they have a reas…

Well the winds have changed on that stance, at least in Europe. I've seen a couple of leading politicians say something in the line of: "If china can do it so can we" concerning the Chinese firewall and blocking "unwanted" content on the web, which is scary.

If it happens, it'll become precedent, then all countries will want to do it.

The next logical step is to outlaw phones and devices that are incapable of breaking into. Then they'll make it so you need a license to employ cryptography.

It sounds crazy, but where we are right now would have sounded just as crazy 15 years ago.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#22

Post by nickik » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 9:40 AM UTC

agd wrote: post #12

x5n1 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a choice. Duh. Don't have a phone so they can't monitor you while you are not at home.

How easy is it to be part of society without a phone? The way people communicate, organize, meet, is all via these devices. Yes, whether to have these devices is technically a choice, but when the social cost of choosing not to have one is so high, the choice is made for you.

Dont be so dramatic. You can have a phone and leave it at home if your gone do something where you don't want to get tracket. Thats just the most simple option. Its not a binary choice.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#23

Post by mozumder » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 9:44 AM UTC

Jafit wrote: post #10

Gratsby wrote: post #4

>PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: If, technologically, it is possible to make an impenetrable device or system where the encryption is so strong that there's no key - there's no door at all - then how do we apprehend the child pornographer? How do we solve or disrupt a terrorist plot? It's so disappointing to me to hear a quote like that from the President.

Its fine though, because if you make something illegal then criminals won't use it.

So, get rid of all laws?

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#24

Post by mozumder » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 9:48 AM UTC

kelnos wrote: post #14

mozumder wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So how DO you disrupt criminal plots, then? Do you allow people to conspire to commit crimes? You're going to find, that once you think it through, that you'll end up limiting the rights and freedoms of individuals... there's no getting around that. Life sucks that way. People were never their own little countries. I just feel sorry for the middle-class suckers that thought they had freedom. Poor guys - they never fi…

Do you allow people to conspire to commit crimes? Yes, that's exactly what you do. I would much rather we let a few (more) crimes get through here and there. Weakening privacy for everyone isn't worth it.

You'll find the people value security more than privacy. This is why conspiracy to commit crime is already illegal.

That's just how society is.

Your choice on whether you want to live with the rest of society or not.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#25

Post by SturgeonsLaw » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 9:48 AM UTC

bsder wrote: post #19

Gratsby wrote: post #4

>PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: If, technologically, it is possible to make an impenetrable device or system where the encryption is so strong that there's no key - there's no door at all - then how do we apprehend the child pornographer? How do we solve or disrupt a terrorist plot? It's so disappointing to me to hear a quote like that from the President.

The moment you mention "child pornography" as justification I consider that you have lost the argument. This is simply Godwin's Law for the modern era.

Lovejoy's Law - "would somebody please think of the children"

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#26

Post by tomp » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 9:49 AM UTC

mozumder wrote: post #13

Gratsby wrote: post #4

>PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: If, technologically, it is possible to make an impenetrable device or system where the encryption is so strong that there's no key - there's no door at all - then how do we apprehend the child pornographer? How do we solve or disrupt a terrorist plot? It's so disappointing to me to hear a quote like that from the President.

So how DO you disrupt criminal plots, then? Do you allow people to conspire to commit crimes? You're going to find, that once you think it through, that you'll end up limiting the rights and freedoms of individuals... there's no getting around that. Life sucks that way. People were never their own little countries. I just feel sorry for the middle-class suckers that thought they had freedom. Poor guys - they never fi…

> Do you allow people to conspire to commit crimes?

What's wrong with conspiring to commit crimes? Also, I would imagine that the US First Ammendment explicitly (if I understand Brandenburg v. Ohio correctly) protects such speech, as long as it doesn't result in "imminent lawless action". So it's OK to conspire to commit crimes, as long as you don't actually commit them.

Edit: Reading Wikipedia [1], it looks that mere conspiracy is not enough for a conviction, but an "act in furtherance to committing the crime" is necessary.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_%28criminal%29#Unit...

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#27

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 9:58 AM UTC

lazaroclapp wrote: post #16

mozumder wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So how DO you disrupt criminal plots, then? Do you allow people to conspire to commit crimes? You're going to find, that once you think it through, that you'll end up limiting the rights and freedoms of individuals... there's no getting around that. Life sucks that way. People were never their own little countries. I just feel sorry for the middle-class suckers that thought they had freedom. Poor guys - they never fi…

> So how DO you disrupt criminal plots, then? Do you allow people to conspire to commit crimes? Suppose they meet in person to conspire. Would you suggest having every citizen carry un-blockeable microphones just in case? This is not a "my freedom to swing my fist ends where your nose begins" kinda issue, this is "are we willing to build a police state if it reduced the risk of certain crimes by X%? Even at the cost…

[deleted]

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#28

Post by Silhouette » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 9:58 AM UTC

bsder wrote: post #19

Gratsby wrote: post #4

>PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: If, technologically, it is possible to make an impenetrable device or system where the encryption is so strong that there's no key - there's no door at all - then how do we apprehend the child pornographer? How do we solve or disrupt a terrorist plot? It's so disappointing to me to hear a quote like that from the President.

The moment you mention "child pornography" as justification I consider that you have lost the argument. This is simply Godwin's Law for the modern era.

It's also a horribly counter-productive argument. This is obviously a politically charged subject, but let's try to be rational for a moment.

It seems likely that by far the most prolific creators of child pornography today are... children. What today's parent and grandparent generations used to do in relative privacy behind the metaphorical bike shed, surely today's teenagers are doing with their phones and laptops, perhaps unaware of how insecure and non-private their communications might be.

There are all sorts of difficult ethical questions about how that kind of behaviour should in itself be treated in law, but let's ignore those for now. In any case, if kids are carrying around that kind of material or sending it to each other, surely the best way to protect them is to make sure it stays as private as it should be? That means making everything as secure and safely encrypted as possible. Arguing for weaknesses in encryption or creating backdoor vulnerabilities has exactly the opposite effect.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#29

Post by monk_e_boy » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 9:58 AM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #2

> No, David. If I were in the job now, I would have simply told the FBI to call Fort Meade, the headquarters of the National Security Agency, and NSA would have solved this problem for them. They're not as interested in solving the problem as they are in getting a legal precedent. That's quite the quote, especially given his history of employment. The weirdest thing about this whole cell-phone saga to me is that the…

No the weirdest thing is that Apple is standing up to the government. Isn't that just wrong? You, the people choose the government, so in effect Apple is standing up to the people of America and saying 'no'. If you the people didn't want the FBI to be bullish then choose a different government.

It feels to me (an outsider) that it's the government that is out of control and is not accountable to the people.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#30

Post by thomasahle » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 10:12 AM UTC

monk_e_boy wrote: post #29

jacquesm wrote: post #2

> No, David. If I were in the job now, I would have simply told the FBI to call Fort Meade, the headquarters of the National Security Agency, and NSA would have solved this problem for them. They're not as interested in solving the problem as they are in getting a legal precedent. That's quite the quote, especially given his history of employment. The weirdest thing about this whole cell-phone saga to me is that the…

No the weirdest thing is that Apple is standing up to the government. Isn't that just wrong? You, the people choose the government, so in effect Apple is standing up to the people of America and saying 'no'. If you the people didn't want the FBI to be bullish then choose a different government. It feels to me (an outsider) that it's the government that is out of control and is not accountable to the people.

Apple is in many countries, with governments who'd all like this kind of access. If you give FBI the tools, you also have to accept Russia, China and the whole gang having access to your phone.