Live data from Hacker News

Youngest Kids in Class at Higher Risk of ADHD Diagnosis

npr.org

91–100 of 123 posts

Re: Youngest Kids in Class at Higher Risk of ADHD Diagnosis

#91
post #48

It's a great illustration of the lack of rigor around this stuff. My college provided significant benefits to ADHD diagnosed students. Rather than take finals in stadium seating, you got a personal, air conditioned office, received unlimited time and could use reference material. A few of my friends found a "Do you need Ritalin" quizzes in a magazine, went to a doc-in-the-box and got the diagnosis. They sold the Rita…

This is very belittling to the amazing amount of research that goes into ADHD. Many studies have been done with regard to treatment and diagnosis, and at this point we are better able to treat ADHD than we are able to treat depression There might be a bit of an over-treatment culture (I'm not sure, though), but the science is extremely well developed and tested

I don't think you can responsibly state that the science is "well developed and tested" when we are prescribing dangerous medication to children to treat the fact that they were born in October.

Obviously, the diagnostic protocol that allows such a situation needs some work.

Re: Youngest Kids in Class at Higher Risk of ADHD Diagnosis

#92

It's a great illustration of the lack of rigor around this stuff. My college provided significant benefits to ADHD diagnosed students. Rather than take finals in stadium seating, you got a personal, air conditioned office, received unlimited time and could use reference material. A few of my friends found a "Do you need Ritalin" quizzes in a magazine, went to a doc-in-the-box and got the diagnosis. They sold the Rita…

Your description of your school's accommodations surprises me. I looked into the one for my school and it appears much stricter. Just having ADHD doesn't cut it -- a full write up is necessary. In other words, wouldn't be worth the hassle to fake it.

[deleted]

Re: Youngest Kids in Class at Higher Risk of ADHD Diagnosis

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) Correct diagnosis is important. 2) ADHD meds have side effects. http://childmind.org/article/side-effects-of-adhd-medication...

Who doesn't believe in accurate diagnosis? I do. Their life failure rate is that much higher. The data is too strong and well corroborated. I'm providing data and you haven't. When it gets to last 2 years of high school meds matter, but what if they've repeated a grade already? That's not fair to them.

> Who doesn't believe in accurate diagnosis? I do.

Then you shouldn't be pushing ADHD meds on 6-7 year olds.

> I'm providing data and you haven't. When it gets to last 2 years of high school meds matter, but what if they've repeated a grade already? That's not fair to them.

You are aware I was talking about 6-7 year olds based on what I wrote in the first comment I replied to, right?

I'm not talking about high school students or even Jr High students. I'm perfectly fine with them being diagnosed at that point.

I think the problem is you are missing what part of the OP I was talking about.

Re: Youngest Kids in Class at Higher Risk of ADHD Diagnosis

#94
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I consider it one of the great paradoxes of modern thought that the loudest proponents of evolutionary theory are often the loudest proponents/defenders of pharmaceutical-based treatment for mental illness. So the logic is: - evolution is this amazingly powerful process that has resulted in the development of a vast diversity of astonishingly sophisticated and beautiful species of plants and animals, with the most ad…

Do you also advocate stopping cancer treatments? Stopping vaccinations, because not getting smallpox is interfering with evolution? Evolution doesn't happen for a reason. The whole point of evolution is that our biology and the way our brains work is bafflingly random at times. Depression is a crippling mental illness, it doesn't happen for a reason.

Hi there. I'm sure you're well-intentioned, but this isn't a very charitable or productive response, and it contains at least 3 argumentative fallacies.

Responding to your points...

Do you also advocate stopping cancer treatments?

No and that's a misrepresentation of what I said.

I didn't say we shouldn't treat mental illness.

I said we can do better than giving amphetamines to children as a way of dealing with aberrant behavior, and that perhaps the key to finding the best treatment is likely to be found by understanding (not denying) its evolutionary origins.

I believe this to be true as I've seen this approach work on myself and others.

Stopping vaccinations, because not getting smallpox is interfering with evolution?

Again, I didn't say we shouldn't treat. And I'm not antivax, no.

When done right, vaccination enhances evolution. (FWIW I'm less convinced about giving flu shots to people with healthy immune systems for the same reason most sensible people are concerned about over-prescription of antibiotics).

In short, I'm fine with any medical intervention that steers the world further down the right path (I.e., enhances evolution).

I'm very confident that the widespread prescription of amphetamines to children will one day be shown not to be good for the world.

Evolution doesn't happen for a reason. The whole point of evolution is that our biology and the way our brains work is bafflingly random at times.

This not a statement of established fact; it is a statement of your understanding of evolution, which may or may not be complete or correct.

But natural selection is not a random process. It is a very deliberate process of adoption and distribution of traits that benefit the species.

So the fact that depressive and ADHD-like behaviours exist in so many people across many different regions and cultures, indicates that they have been positively selected and reinforced over many generations.

Another commenter in this subthread has offered a very plausible explanation as to why this may be.

Depression is a crippling mental illness

Trust me, I know, I've had it for much of my life and have witnessed many other lives be destroyed by it.

it doesn't happen for a reason.

Well for me the key to overcoming depression was discovering that it does have a reason, then addressing that reason at the most fundamental level (genetic expression).

And now I plan to devote as much of the rest of my life and available resources as I can spare, to researching the topic so more people have the chance to be saved from this menace.

Assuming that what you want is a complete end to mental illness - for everybody, regardless of their genetic predisposition - we both want the same thing.

Re: Youngest Kids in Class at Higher Risk of ADHD Diagnosis

#95
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you also advocate stopping cancer treatments? Stopping vaccinations, because not getting smallpox is interfering with evolution? Evolution doesn't happen for a reason. The whole point of evolution is that our biology and the way our brains work is bafflingly random at times. Depression is a crippling mental illness, it doesn't happen for a reason.

Hi there. I'm sure you're well-intentioned, but this isn't a very charitable or productive response, and it contains at least 3 argumentative fallacies. Responding to your points... Do you also advocate stopping cancer treatments? No and that's a misrepresentation of what I said. I didn't say we shouldn't treat mental illness. I said we can do better than giving amphetamines to children as a way of dealing with aberr…

Is this a cultural thing?

In England the recommended treatment for ADD / ADHD isn't amphetamine as a first response.

Here's what NICE say: http://pathways.nice.org.uk/pathways/attention-deficit-hyper...

http://pathways.nice.org.uk/pathways/attention-deficit-hyper...

> Drug treatment is not indicated as first-line treatment for moderate ADHD.

> Offer parents or carers referral to a group parent-training/education programme on its own or with other group treatment (CBT and/or social skills training) for the child or young person.

> Consider individual psychological interventions (such as CBT or social skills training) for older adolescents.

> Where ADHD is present with a learning disability, offer referral to an individual or group parent training/education programme according to the preference of the child or young person and the parents or carers.

In England children should only be getting medication if they've been through a rigorous assessment and are seen as needing those meds.

Re: Youngest Kids in Class at Higher Risk of ADHD Diagnosis

#96
post #86
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I consider it one of the great paradoxes of modern thought that the loudest proponents of evolutionary theory are often the loudest proponents/defenders of pharmaceutical-based treatment for mental illness. So the logic is: - evolution is this amazingly powerful process that has resulted in the development of a vast diversity of astonishingly sophisticated and beautiful species of plants and animals, with the most ad…

As someone who has dealt with ADHD both with and without medication, at least from my experience this line of reasoning leads to much pain. I cannot speak for those with depression, but ADHD has easily tripled the amount of stress I have in my life, if not more. It causes impulsive behaviour that can wreck relationships(both personal and professional), and makes it extremely hard to concentrate on many things that ar…

Hey there,

I'm sorry to give the impression that I think you and those like you should suffer without treatment.

I really don't.

And I don't believe ADHD is a myth or anything like that. Quite the opposite.

I just believe we can do better that what the medical profession currently offers.

I mean, don't you think it would be a shame if we couldn't?

Don't you think it would be great if we could come to fully understand mental illness at a fundamental level, then develop treatments that gave you even better health than what you've already experienced, without the need for stimulant drugs?

There is likely to be no higher reason for ADHD and depression to exist.

Not wanting to labor the point on a topic that's clearly sensitive to you, but in short: evolutionary theory says there must be a reason why these traits are so widespread.

I'll leave it there for now.

Re: Youngest Kids in Class at Higher Risk of ADHD Diagnosis

#97
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I consider it one of the great paradoxes of modern thought that the loudest proponents of evolutionary theory are often the loudest proponents/defenders of pharmaceutical-based treatment for mental illness. So the logic is: - evolution is this amazingly powerful process that has resulted in the development of a vast diversity of astonishingly sophisticated and beautiful species of plants and animals, with the most ad…

ADHD is a trait that drives a need to explore, to discover - it's a handy gene if you're a tribal nomad, and going finding that cool new valley will allow your genes to survive. If you're a first world schlub, however, it prevents you from sitting tidily in your little box and people get mad and you get sad, because conformity is identity. Your genes only get passed on to a sports sock. There are no new valleys to di…

Thanks for this comment, you're mostly spot-on.

There are no new valleys to discover.

Except there are.

It just needs the right kind of awareness and encouragement.

Cage a bird and you need to adapt its diet and care. Same with humans.

Indeed. And my hope (and belief) is that we'll soon see much better techniques than amphetamines for providing said care. Opening that metaphorical cage is probably a big part of it.

Re: Youngest Kids in Class at Higher Risk of ADHD Diagnosis

#98
post #95
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi there. I'm sure you're well-intentioned, but this isn't a very charitable or productive response, and it contains at least 3 argumentative fallacies. Responding to your points... Do you also advocate stopping cancer treatments? No and that's a misrepresentation of what I said. I didn't say we shouldn't treat mental illness. I said we can do better than giving amphetamines to children as a way of dealing with aberr…

Is this a cultural thing? In England the recommended treatment for ADD / ADHD isn't amphetamine as a first response. Here's what NICE say: http://pathways.nice.org.uk/pathways/attention-deficit-hyper... http://pathways.nice.org.uk/pathways/attention-deficit-hyper... > Drug treatment is not indicated as first-line treatment for moderate ADHD. > Offer parents or carers referral to a group parent-training/education prog…

Yeah I think it's particularly bad in the US, where society has "advanced" to the point where the attitude of "there's a pill for that" seems to apply to pretty much any life setback.

Of course I oversimplify; I know not all people/doctors/regions are like that.

And I do see some of that kind of attitude among some in Australia too, but societal attitudes and the government controls on pharmaceuticals that exist here and the U.K. keep things more moderate.

Re: Youngest Kids in Class at Higher Risk of ADHD Diagnosis

#99

It's a great illustration of the lack of rigor around this stuff. My college provided significant benefits to ADHD diagnosed students. Rather than take finals in stadium seating, you got a personal, air conditioned office, received unlimited time and could use reference material. A few of my friends found a "Do you need Ritalin" quizzes in a magazine, went to a doc-in-the-box and got the diagnosis. They sold the Rita…

Yeah right? Lack of rigor, people like you are the people who hurt me who have it. Here's your rigor for you buddy http://www.amazon.com/Attention-Deficit-Hyperactivity-Disord... I'm going to edit my comment with my studies copy paste that I prepare every time someone "doubts" ADHD. http://www.filedropper.com/russellabarkley-attention-deficit... Here's the entire epub buddy. Please edit your post, gosh. ""By adolesce…

Chill out. I didn't claim that ADHD doesn't exist. I asserted that there is a lack of diagnostic rigor in diagnostics and implied that the incentives are aligned to provide over diagnosis.

We've moved to a model where "raising standards" in education and increased evaluation of teachers equates to formulaic, inflexible school curriculum that younger kids cannot handle. So they act out and get referred for evaluation. My public school district begins assessing children using computerized testing starting in November of the kindergarten year. There's a big difference between a 5 year old born on January 1 and a five year old born on August 1, and those later born kids are going to get labeled with mental health conditions for life and drugged because they are square pegs that don't fit in the prescribed round hole.

The article didn't claim that ADHD doesn't exist either. A key quote:

> Zoëga says the only country studied so far where the relative age of young children doesn't seem to have an effect on ADHD diagnosis is Denmark, where there's more flexibility for when children enter school

Bullshit ADHD diagnosis are bad for people like you who are genuinely affected, as the resources available to help you end up getting shared and stretched to cover disciplinary and structural educational problems. A non-ADHD child isn't helped by ADHD prescription and unnecessary services, and an ADHD child isn't helped by not getting the attention he needs.

Re: Youngest Kids in Class at Higher Risk of ADHD Diagnosis

#100
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry adrusi and dang. I'll stop posting to threads like these.

Please keep posting. I really like your comments and believe we need more of what you have to say on HN. Just try to develop the ability to avoid getting emotionally charged and venting your emotional energy on other commenters. It's something I've been working on for a long time and I can assure you it's worth the effort. You're most welcome to email me if you want some suggestions on effective techniques.

thanks for the kind words.

But this is a hot-button topic for me. I've made this mistake before. So it's really best if I just avoid it until I can talk about it in a way that's compatible with HN rules.

Post reply on HN