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Youngest Kids in Class at Higher Risk of ADHD Diagnosis

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Re: Youngest Kids in Class at Higher Risk of ADHD Diagnosis

#11

Removing actual firm discipline for all the young boys has been a disaster. We replaced strict and perhaps unpleasant discipline in favor of medicine, and its worse long term side effect profile.

Although hated, this comment raises interesting points.

Indeed, kids are given much more freedom and are less "disciplined" than ever before.

At the same time, there's never been so much pressure and coerciveness than right now. You "don't have to take the meds", but you most likely will do that.

Sort of a hidden, more hurtful, authoritarianism.

Re: Youngest Kids in Class at Higher Risk of ADHD Diagnosis

#12

Removing actual firm discipline for all the young boys has been a disaster. We replaced strict and perhaps unpleasant discipline in favor of medicine, and its worse long term side effect profile.

Hey, have you seen The Lawnmower Man movie? Because you have that coming.

Re: Youngest Kids in Class at Higher Risk of ADHD Diagnosis

#14
> The youngest students were between 20 percent and 100 percent more likely to get the diagnosis or ADHD medication than were the oldest students in the cohort, says Helga Zoëga, an epidemiologist at the University of Iceland who worked on the Icelandic and Israeli studies.

> "Within that age range there is a huge difference in developmental and social and emotional maturity," says Dr. Adiaha Spinks-Franklin, a developmental and behavioral pediatrician at Texas Children's Hospital who was not involved in any of the studies. "A 6-year-old is just not the same as a 7-year-old."

> And yet a first-grader might stand shoulder to shoulder with another student nearly 12 months her elder. "And the way we diagnose ADHD is we talk to the parent about the child's behavior, and we mail the teacher questionnaires," Spinks-Franklin says. "The teacher will be comparing the child's behavior relative to other children in the class."

That is disturbing. It is clear they aren't taking age into account except at the broadest levels when handing out ADHD medication.

This rings dangerous close to "That kid is too much trouble, just medicate them and move on."

Re: Youngest Kids in Class at Higher Risk of ADHD Diagnosis

#15
post #8
post #7

Is there anywhere that divides up their younger grade classes into who is born in the first half of the educational year and who is born in the second half? That could help somewhat although the teacher of the second half kids probably is going to have a tough time.

England has very recently allowed summer born children to defer. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachm... http://www.theguardian.com/education/2015/sep/08/parents-of-... It's a bit confusing.

I don't see how that solves the issue, as it just moves (w/ optionality) the cutoff from 1st Sep back a few months. Meaning if everybody opted in, the spring kids would become the youngest in class, instead of late summer kids.

Edit - I see this helps ensure kids don't start Reception (ie, the equiv of Kindergarten in the US) too early. But it also shifts the point of youngest back a few months, so in later years, the kids born in spring season will be the least mature in class, and judged in this regard relative to the others.

Re: Youngest Kids in Class at Higher Risk of ADHD Diagnosis

#16

Removing actual firm discipline for all the young boys has been a disaster. We replaced strict and perhaps unpleasant discipline in favor of medicine, and its worse long term side effect profile.

As an adult male with ADHD that went undiagnosed until I was in my late 20s, who was one of the youngest in his class, who faced the potential of "corporal punishment" (spanking on the rear-end with a wooden paddle was the threat) both at school and at home (it was only ever administered to me at home by my parents), and who now has a daughter who has just passed through the elementary years at a school that does not practice any physical punishment, and who has never practiced any sort of physical punishment on my daughter, I strongly disagree.

The biggest change I've seen in the style of schooling between my elementary years and today is not the administration of corporal punishment. Yes, it was an option when I was a child, but it was rarely administered. Less than half a dozen times a year across six grades and about 1000 children, perhaps, is my rough guesstimate.

Instead, the biggest change I see is the near total removal of recess as a part of the day. When I was in elementary school, we had two 15-minute recesses, one 25-minute recess, and an additional 10-15 minute recess period after lunch. My daughter, throughout her elementary school years, was given a single 15 minute recess, and this was often taken away from the entire class as a collective punishment. To me, it's no wonder the kids can't sit still or pay attention. Children that age need to run and play without structure and with as few rules as possible. That physical energy has to go somewhere. And it too often goes to acting up and inability to pay attention in class.

Re: Youngest Kids in Class at Higher Risk of ADHD Diagnosis

#18

Removing actual firm discipline for all the young boys has been a disaster. We replaced strict and perhaps unpleasant discipline in favor of medicine, and its worse long term side effect profile.

You say strict but don't you really just mean threatening children with violence? The last time someone told me to stand still so they could hit me as hard as they could with a cane was when I was 7 or 8 years old. That's not education. Real educators, much like real democracy, do not rely on fear and violence to control others.

I definitely understand why using fear to control children is a bad thing, but as for violence, it's at the root of all power anyway. Whenever you impose a disciplinary sanction, it's implicit that if the sanction is not respected, it will be replaced by an alternative, at least as harsh sanction, and eventually the alternative sanction will be violent.

Fear is clearly not a great way of controlling your children, but no one does it in any other way. If instead of corporal punishment you discipline your child by revoking privileges, you're still using threats and fear. The alternative is to reason with your child, to present a convincing argument for why they should listen to you. But kids aren't (always) rational actors, so that doesn't always work.

Both hitting your child and grounding your child are based on fear and violence. They each have their disadvantages. Hitting your child might end up teaching them that hitting people is OK, grounding your child gives them a lot of time to build resentment and keeps them cooped up with negativity and inactivity so that they're more likely to get into trouble again. I'm not sure which I would have chosen as a kid, but now I'd choose corporal punishment.

Re: Youngest Kids in Class at Higher Risk of ADHD Diagnosis

#19

Removing actual firm discipline for all the young boys has been a disaster. We replaced strict and perhaps unpleasant discipline in favor of medicine, and its worse long term side effect profile.

Although hated, this comment raises interesting points. Indeed, kids are given much more freedom and are less "disciplined" than ever before. At the same time, there's never been so much pressure and coerciveness than right now. You "don't have to take the meds", but you most likely will do that. Sort of a hidden, more hurtful, authoritarianism.

Indeed, kids are given much more freedom and are less "disciplined" than ever before.

Excuse me? Less disciplined, sure, but not more free. Kids today have no freedom. They are supervised by adults from when they wake up til they go to sleep. In school they are explicitly encouraged to not resolve conflicts on their own but instead to go to a teacher. The play that they engage in is not only always supervised, but also usually adult-structured. No groups of 2–5 kids going off to play by themselves and making up their own games, they have to participate in whatever nonsense the adults are forcing on them. Children aren't children in the brave new world, they're liabilities.

Re: Youngest Kids in Class at Higher Risk of ADHD Diagnosis

#20
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

England has very recently allowed summer born children to defer. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachm... http://www.theguardian.com/education/2015/sep/08/parents-of-... It's a bit confusing.

I don't see how that solves the issue, as it just moves (w/ optionality) the cutoff from 1st Sep back a few months. Meaning if everybody opted in, the spring kids would become the youngest in class, instead of late summer kids. Edit - I see this helps ensure kids don't start Reception (ie, the equiv of Kindergarten in the US) too early. But it also shifts the point of youngest back a few months, so in later years, th…

Exactly, it just changes which group of students are in the "too early" group. When I start a new job, they don't say, "Well, your job offer was made on 12-May, but our fiscal year starts in April, so you'll have no choice but to wait until 1-Apr to start work." The solution likely involves abandoning the model of childhood education consisting of fixed, arbitrarily-long cycles beginning on arbitrarily-chosen dates, progressing linearly. But when you leave it up to voters, abandoning "The Way Things Were Always Done" is about as impossible as curing cancer.
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