Lee Sedol Beats AlphaGo in Game 4 • Hacker News Board

Re: Lee Sedol Beats AlphaGo in Game 4

#211

Post by Bud » Sun, Mar 13, 2016, 2:59 PM UTC

denim_chicken wrote: post #190

mikeyouse wrote: post #11

Relevant tweets from Demis; Lee Sedol is playing brilliantly! #AlphaGo thought it was doing well, but got confused on move 87. We are in trouble now... Mistake was on move 79, but #AlphaGo only came to that realisation on around move 87 When I say 'thought' and 'realisation' I just mean the output of #AlphaGo value net. It was around 70% at move 79 and then dived on move 87 Lee Sedol wins game 4!!! Congratulations! H…

It feels really weird to see someone being showered with congratulations for beating a computer program. What exactly is he being congratulated for? For probably triggering and then capitalizing on a bug in AlphaGo's AI? For showing that human resolve, perseverance and a "fighting spirit" can trump a flawed AI, at least until the AI gets fixed? For giving DeepMind extremely valuable test data that will only accelerat…

Perhaps you'd like a shot at explaining why AI is an "amoral field of study", and why it could "delegitimize everything that currently makes humans unique and extraordinary"?

Dolphins are about as intelligent as us, too. Are dolphins amoral? Do they delegitimize Beethoven, Tesla, Gödel, Einstein, and da Vinci?

Re: Lee Sedol Beats AlphaGo in Game 4

#212

Post by Filligree » Sun, Mar 13, 2016, 3:01 PM UTC

tux1968 wrote: post #178

Joof wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AlphaGo mostly plays against itself, meaning it learns in a very separate environment. It certainly might come up with novel strategies.

I suppose that's possible. However Demis Hassabis has said many people have noted that AlphaGo makes human-like moves. He commented that it made sense since AlphaGo taught itself from the games of human players.

It could also be that human-looking moves are already close to the best possible. Neither AlphaGo nor human players can play god's hand, but they're approaching the same location.

Re: Lee Sedol Beats AlphaGo in Game 4

#213

Post by forgotpwtomain » Sun, Mar 13, 2016, 3:04 PM UTC

adnzzzzZ wrote: post #6

According to the commentary of both streams I was watching, after losing an important exchange in the middle (apparently move 79 https://twitter.com/demishassabis/status/708928006400581632 ) it seems AlphaGo sort of bugged out and started making wrong moves on an already dead group on the right side of the board. After that it kept repeating similar mistakes until it resigned a lot of moves after. But the game was al…

> But the game was already won for Lee Sedol after that middle exchange.

Myungwan Kim in his commentary, estimated the game to be worse for white even after 79 if Black had not destroyed it's opportunity for fighting the ko at M-13 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMqjGNqfU6I&t=1h40m1s

Re: Lee Sedol Beats AlphaGo in Game 4

#214

Post by meric » Sun, Mar 13, 2016, 3:04 PM UTC

meric wrote: post #153

magoghm wrote: post #89

Right now I don't know if I'm more impressed by AlphaGo's artificial intelligence or its artificial stupidity. Lee Sedol won because he played extremely well. But when AlphaGo was already losing it made some very bad moves. One of them was so bad that it's the kind of mistake you would only expect from someone who's starting to learn how to play Go.

AlphaGo kept making bad moves in such a way the rest of the game becomes more and more predictable - each of the moves Lee Sedol makes could be described as the only obvious one. On the surface, as an analogy, it sounds like investors in financial markets, capitulating , selling at a loss for a more risky outcome. In hindsight almost always bad moves, but at the time of making them it feels right because it's removin…

Correction: for a more risky outcome should be for a less risky outcome

Re: Lee Sedol Beats AlphaGo in Game 4

#215

Post by Filligree » Sun, Mar 13, 2016, 3:04 PM UTC

fizixer wrote: post #65

minimaxir wrote: post #4

There were a few jokes made during the round about how AlphaGo resigns. Turns out it's just a popup window! http://i.imgur.com/WKWMHLv.png

For anyone wondering, that's Ubuntu Linux (version most likely 14.04; Unity interface). off-topic: DeepMind should switch to a tiling window manager like i3 for increased keyboard-only productivity :)

Probably Goobuntu. ;-)

Re: Lee Sedol Beats AlphaGo in Game 4

#216

Post by Bud » Sun, Mar 13, 2016, 3:06 PM UTC

mizzao wrote: post #194

Another way to look at this is just how efficient the human brain is for the same amount of computation. On one hand, we have racks of servers (1920 CPUs and 280 GPUs) [1] using megawatts (gigawatts?) of power, and on the other hand we have a person eating food and using about 100W of power (when physically at rest), of which about 20W is used by the brain. [1] http://www.economist.com/news/science-and-technology/216…

Definitely not anything close to gigawatts: ALL of Google (not DeepMind, but the entire company) uses only about 260 megawatts.

Probably on the order of one megawatt or so.

http://inhabitat.com/infographic-how-much-energy-does-google...

Re: Lee Sedol Beats AlphaGo in Game 4

#217

Post by fma » Sun, Mar 13, 2016, 3:06 PM UTC

thangalin wrote: post #134

yulunli wrote: post #101

AlphaGo obviously made mistakes in game 4 under the pressure from LSD's brilliant play. I'd like to know if the "dumb moves" are caused by the lack of pro data or some more fundamental flaws with the algorithm/methodology. AlphaGo was trained on millions of amateur games, but if Google/Deepmind builds a website where people (including prop players) can play with AlphaGo, it would be interesting to see who improves fa…

AlphaGo doesn't feel pressure. http://i.imgur.com/ny3RhD4.png My guess is that Sedol won because he introduced sufficient complexity through cutting points and numerous black groups (see the image). Since AlphaGo uses Value and Policy networks to determine the hot spots to analyse using Monte Carlo tree searches, by making a game rife with lots of simultaneous fights, Sedol dodged the one-two punch of Value and Polic…

Could this be overcome by throwing more hardware?

Re: Lee Sedol Beats AlphaGo in Game 4

#218

Post by jdmichal » Sun, Mar 13, 2016, 3:08 PM UTC

denim_chicken wrote: post #202

grumpy-buffalo wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about just for playing a good game of Go?

So I suppose the fact that the opponent is a computer program should not be factored into the reaction to Sedol's win at all. I hope your reductionist explanation is not accurate because it would imply that we are already so highly conditioned to machines and to AI that this match is thought to be no different from a match between two humans.

You're acting like following arbitrary sets of rules to maximize a value function isn't something that computers excel at. The only thing that was holding up computers for Go was simply time; there were too many possibilities to consider. Humans are really, really good at heuristically trimming possibilities, but sometimes to the detriment of finding maxima.

Re: Lee Sedol Beats AlphaGo in Game 4

#219

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Mar 13, 2016, 3:13 PM UTC

amalcon wrote: post #209

diskcat wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a possibility that the AlphaGo team, knowing that it has already won a decisive victory, wanted to spare the champion a crushing 5-0 defeat and so commanded the AI to lose on purpose.

The AlphaGo team has stated that they no longer have the ability to make changes to the AI used for the match. The rules of the exhibition match prohibit that. They maybe could have anyway, but it would be cheating: just the same as if they'd Mechanical Turk'ed it by e.g. having Ke Jie actually choose the moves to play.

[deleted]

Re: Lee Sedol Beats AlphaGo in Game 4

#220

Post by Filligree » Sun, Mar 13, 2016, 3:16 PM UTC

gcatalfamo wrote: post #137

I believe that after winning 3 out of 5, AlphaGo team started experimenting with variables now that they can relax. Which will in turn be even more helpful for future AlphaGo version than the previous 3 wins.

They've declared AlphaGo's code and network frozen for the purposes of this competition, in part to avoid the PR issues that Deep Blue got for doing exactly that.