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AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol 3-0 [video]

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Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol 3-0 [video]

#151
post #31

It's important to remember that this is an accomplishment of humanity, not a defeat. By constructing this AI, we are simply creating another tool for advancing our state of being. (or something like that)

What is our purpose if computers can do everything better than us? It feels like computers have taken one aspect of humanness: logic. Computers could do arithmetic, do algebra, play chess, and now they can play go. It hurts because logic is usually thought to be one of the highest of human characteristics. Yes computers might never be able to replicate emotion, but even dogs have that. There's still some aspects we h…

Reading this thread, I believe there's one aspect not discussed: in a battle between man and machine, it's debatable who wins and depends on the domain, but a man-machine combination always wins over both.

On emotions, that's a characteristic of life. With the consciousness we possess, without emotions we would quickly realize that life isn't worth living. I doubt that a "true AI", one with consciousness, will want to live without emotions. And about dogs, we haven't built anything as sophisticated yet ;-)

On AlphaGo, personally I'm not impressed. It's still raw search over the space of all possible moves, combined with neural networks and these techniques do not have the potential to yield human-level intelligence.

On logic, we have enough as to be able to build AlphaGo (also aided by computers and software that we've built, in a man-machine combination, get it?). Can a computer do anything resembling that yet? Of course not, because for now computers are just glorified automatons.

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol 3-0 [video]

#152
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of course, a cat is not conscious. How do you know?

I'm not an expert in this domain, but I think it's pretty much scientific consensus that this is the case. Now experts can discuss details or semantics, but do you truly suggest cats might be conscious?

Yes. They have been shown to be self-aware and aware of their surroundings, which satisfies the classical definition of consciousness. Unless you reject that definition, I'm not sure why you'd claim this.

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol 3-0 [video]

#153
post #31

It's important to remember that this is an accomplishment of humanity, not a defeat. By constructing this AI, we are simply creating another tool for advancing our state of being. (or something like that)

What is our purpose if computers can do everything better than us? It feels like computers have taken one aspect of humanness: logic. Computers could do arithmetic, do algebra, play chess, and now they can play go. It hurts because logic is usually thought to be one of the highest of human characteristics. Yes computers might never be able to replicate emotion, but even dogs have that. There's still some aspects we h…

Why assume that humans and computers won't merge?

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol 3-0 [video]

#154
post #43

Some professionals labeled some AlphaGo moves as being unoptimal or slow. In reality, Alpha Go doesn't try to maximize its score, only its probability of winning.

From watching it I'm almost inclined to say it maximizes its chances of not losing over necessarily winning.

They are playing with a 7.5 point komi [1], and so a game cannot end in a tie. Doesn't that mean that there is no distinction between winning and not losing?

[1] komi is a number of points that is added to white's score to compensate for the disadvantage of moving second. When a non-integer komi is used, such as in this match, you cannot have a tie because scoring on the board is always integral.

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol 3-0 [video]

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if he could identify those long-term-thinking moves by playing a version of AlphaGo on a smaller board, then gradually increasing the size of the board over successive games once he is able to consistently win or tie at a given board size. I also wonder if when Alpha Go plays itself, does it always win when it is black or white, does it always tie, or is it a mix? So much to learn from this.

There is typically a point advantage of around 7 points when you get the chance to play the first move. In professional matches, white will be given a 6.5 point bonus to compensate for this. So yes I think it's fair to assume that black usually wins. Actually, AlphaGo could probably be used to calculate the perfect number of points, because it has changed over the years. In China they have a 7.5 point bonus for white…

AlphaGo uses Chinese rules, and this match against Lee Sedol has a komi of 7.5.

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol 3-0 [video]

#157
post #31

It's important to remember that this is an accomplishment of humanity, not a defeat. By constructing this AI, we are simply creating another tool for advancing our state of being. (or something like that)

What is our purpose if computers can do everything better than us? It feels like computers have taken one aspect of humanness: logic. Computers could do arithmetic, do algebra, play chess, and now they can play go. It hurts because logic is usually thought to be one of the highest of human characteristics. Yes computers might never be able to replicate emotion, but even dogs have that. There's still some aspects we h…

There is no "purpose".

There is only selection.

Meat is just a phase.

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol 3-0 [video]

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be amazing if it could achieve the same levels (or higher) without the bootstrapping. The niggling thought in my mind was that AlphaGo's strength is built on human strength.

Human strength is also "built on human strength" so I don't see the problem? :)

It's not truly artificial if it's using a human playbook. (Is the problem posed by the parent, I believe.)

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol 3-0 [video]

#160
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. Lee lost a title 3-2 to Ke Je recently but he lost very convincingly against AlphaGo. Ke Je is not that stronger than Lee. He's going to lose too but he's 18 so I understand that he's feeling he can do anything. My feeling is that AlphaGo could be a couple of stones stronger than the best pros. Considering that dans are capped at 9 but there are 9 dans that always win against some other 9 dans, the best pros…

Do you know what the current limit is on a handicap that a professional player can overcome? Is there a known theoretical limit? That's a possible 'endgame' for go ai.

I'm not sure I'm understanding correctly but I believe some pros have done demonstrations against weaker amateurs (15k?) with something like 25 stones. Yes it'd be fun to see AlphaGo take pros with huge handicaps. And even inside handicaps there's alternatives. Like free placements vs just on star points. AlphaGo against a pro that starts with two stones in each corner could be neat. At some point I'd imagine the pro associations might balk at such games though.
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