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America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

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Re: America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

#351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany, in fact, does leave people behind. But it doesn't leave them without perspective. The tiered school model of Germany sorts you into one of three tiers based on your abilities with the age of 10, which gets even more specific over the years after that. Only people finishing from the highest tier can go to a theoretical university, people from the tier below can at maximum go to a university of applied science…

That's a great advertisement. I've just moved to Germany from the US about one year ago. So far it's made me realize how under-developed the US society is. As I learn more about how Germany operates, I constantly have those, "that makes so much more sense", moments. Of course this isn't always true, but in general I feel that they are just doing things a little better here. I agree that society has to change how we v…

As a German I have to say, while this sounds nice, Germany is still horribly inefficient, trains and busses are always late, and a lot of bureaucracy is useless.

I’m not sure yet if Germany is just the least worst country, or if it’s just all PR.

Re: America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

#352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but teacher unions and Democrats hate that. The idea of free market competition is contrary to every bone in their bodies. That could lead to actual accountability. Currently the US school system is the Lada, free markets could turn it into a Honda.

In free markets, client is always right, right? Like in... the client is 16 y.o., loaded with hormones, and more interested in the current gossip than in the skills that will change his/her life a decade from now. The client is also interested in not having his/her parents nagging about bad grades those old bookworms like to give because they hate youth and freedom... I am extremely sure that would work OK.

The client is the parent, not the child. Parents tend to fall all over themselves trying to get their kids into good schools which is why property prices in highly rated school districts are always higher. Your only option is to move there, which essentially is how people of lower incomes actually do get trapped where they are...they can't afford to just up and move because the school was terrible.

Now, here's the thing: to end up with a highly rated school you need good teachers. Good teachers tend to gravitate towards the same factors that any other employee gravitates towards: pay rate and a good work environment. For a teacher, a good work environment usually means administrators who support them at all times - including dealing with parents.

Now this is a hugely important scenario to take into account. If a teacher is pressured by parents and fired by a public school currently...where exactly are they supposed to go? In a school choice scenario, they'd have multiple different options instead of many schools from one central authority. When teachers have more options and can simply walk out the door of a bad work environment with an unsupportive admin, they'll end up getting RECRUITED by other school administrators who know better.

Parents will continue beating down the door of those good schools to get in, but right now if a parent threatens a teacher, mouths off or pressures them for better grades they are doing so with no potential consequence. If you try that at a private school you know what happens? Parent gets a warning and if it happens again the child will have to find another school the next year. The admin isn't going to risk losing a great teacher to appease little Johnny's parents.

This shifts the ENTIRE dynamic of the school system to one in which teachers are in control because teachers are effectively the product.

Just think about what the job market looks like for programmers right now in areas with high demand. That's essentially what the market for teachers would become.

Re: America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

#353
post #314

The purpose of school is to equip students on how to teach themselves, not to spoon feed them facts. For that reason, philosophy, rhetoric, logic, music, literature, and mathematics should be the priorities. Students who are well-versed in those areas WILL figure out the rest of it a million times faster than some kid who drilled on history, science, or other facts. Teach the kids how to study history, don't feed the…

The purpose of elementary and high school is to create obedient workers that can follow a schedule and respect authority. I agree that the purpose of university is what you say though.

You're kidding yourself if you think that this purpose doesn't also extend to the Universities. High School graduates don't design missile guidance systems, nor do they work with FBI to break TOR, etc.

Re: America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

#354
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Democracy is a really shitty form of government. It prevents tyrants, and it prevents a single party from holding power for too long. Which are great benefits over, e.g. monarchies. But the average voter isn't informed enough to really understand all the issues. So who wins isn't really correlated with who is best or who is right. In my ideal form of government, the representatives would not be elected, but randomly…

A large part of being a politician is the social skills to get people onside. A random sampling based on education and IQ isn't going to give you that.

But that's exactly the problem. It selects for people who are charismatic and good at playing political games. Rather than people who are good at selecting the best policies.

Re: America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

#355
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A large part of being a politician is the social skills to get people onside. A random sampling based on education and IQ isn't going to give you that.

But that's exactly the problem. It selects for people who are charismatic and good at playing political games. Rather than people who are good at selecting the best policies.

Arguably, those political games should be necessary in a system where compromise is essential to forming policy.

Re: America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

#356
post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Look at the Republican candidates all crowing about how they'll shut down the Department of Education if they're elected. Please explain to me where in the Constitution the United States are given any authority over the education systems of the individual states.

Really? Article V Section 8: The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; The interpretation of "gerneral Welfare" varies of course, but providing SOME sort of standards and funding at the federal level…

> The interpretation of "gerneral Welfare" varies of course, but providing SOME sort of standards and funding at the federal level for education is well within accepted US federal authority.

You are correct that it is generally accepted, but you are 100% incorrect that it is in any way a faithful reading of the text of the Constitution.

The power granted to Congress in that clause is that of taxation; its powers concerning the common defence and general welfare of the United States (of the states as a whole, that is, not of the people of the United States), are enumerated elsewhere in the document.

Your interpretation — common though it is — implies that there are no limits to what the Congress may do, and that the Ninth & Tenth Amendments are meaningless.

Re: America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

#357
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that you have to leave education. But anything would be better than 12 years just to learn the basics so they can re-learn them again in college. Public schools waste way, way too much time. Get kids into college sooner so they can actually learn things. I was that kid. I went to the "best" high school in all the surrounding cities. It was a mess, sub-pair on every academic, legal, and social level. Teachers…

Indeed, the pace of public education is horribly slow. Kids are bored, they need something to do.

My guess is this depends on the child and the institution.

Re: America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

#358
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Public schools aren't the greatest when it comes to accelerating social mobility - a lot of my graduating class is still in my hometown. If you can afford it, a private school will put you on a more focused track to success. Still, plenty of people make it through and go on to achieve great things. Plus, they are grounded in the realities of what is commonly referred to as the 99%

"Public schools aren't the greatest when it comes to accelerating social mobility - a lot of my graduating class is still in my hometown." "Social mobility" doesn't necessarily mean moving upwards only. Public schools therefore may indeed contribute to public mobility and even be an accelerating factor to it! The fact that the graduates of your class are still in your hometown does not really say much about social mo…

Good point, I need to provide better context. In my hometown, there aren't a lot of opportunities, and a significant portion of what's there is service / labor. So by staying in my hometown, I'm implying that a lot of them are working unskilled jobs.

Re: America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

#359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, wrong. They are going to teach what a large association of actual experts in education think they should teach. Of course you should trust the people that put as much or more effort into education as you did in becoming an expert in your field. I think I heard something about how people that get a lot of expertise in one area like doctors, lawyers, programmers, tend to far overestimate their skills in unrelated t…

The vast majority of people who style themselves as experts in education are worse than useless. You've chosen a poor discipline to outsource your critical thinking to.

And you're basing that on... ? You being an expert? This is exactly the problem I'm talking about. You don't know what you don't know.

Whether the teachers are good or have good resources or have a class too heterogeneous to teach effectively is a different matter. But people who assume they know so much more than the experts need a humility and reality check.

Re: America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

#360
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many public schools are just fine, if not excellent.. Something like 90% of my 300-student graduating class ended up in college, several dozen at Ivys or "near-Ivy" schools. We had intensive programming classes and maybe 15 or 20 AP options. This was just a random upper middle class district in the Midwest, we were rarely on the list of the 100-best schools in the state.

That doesn't pass the smell test all. Your school sent 10% of its students to elite colleges, that's clearly not common.

I'd say that is believable. There is a strong correlation between parental income and a child's SAT score. So you could probably get a rough estimate of a public high school's average SAT scores by looking at the average income in the surrounding areas. I was looking at a couple public high schools in California, and there some where it looks like the average senior is graduating with test scores close to the top 10%. I'd expect some schools have uncommon success placing seniors into elite colleges because they have a very talented student body.
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