America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts • Hacker News Board

Re: America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

#311

Post by TheBeardKing » Fri, Mar 11, 2016, 4:02 PM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #289

nibs wrote: post #271

This study does not surprise me. All four of my grandparents were educators for their entire career. And as a result, my parents decided to unschool my brothers and I. In trying to be as objective and self-aware as possible, it is clear to us that the homeschoolers/unschoolers we built a community with are vastly better prepared for adulthood, regardless of level of general intelligence. There is a reason the accepta…

> There is a reason the acceptance rate at Stanford is ~27% for homeschoolers vs. 5% for those who went to school. Is it selection bias?

If Stanford were ineffective at selecting qualified students they wouldn't be an effective school.

Re: America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

#312

Post by jessaustin » Fri, Mar 11, 2016, 4:03 PM UTC

Mikeb85 wrote: post #299

jessaustin wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously OP meant it is easier to get higher class rank/valedictorian at poor noncompetitive schools than at rich competitive schools. Many colleges use class rank when deciding admittance.

The wonders of the US education system never cease to amaze me. Are tests not standardized that class rank matters? When I first entered university here, grade average was all that mattered. Certain grades even guarantee university acceptance...

I would suggest two things. First, you have seriously underestimated the variation among secondary educational institutions in USA, a mistake that no USA college admissions process would make. Second, even in the context of the fortunate realm in which you attend university, a "good grades guarantee acceptance" policy probably somewhat underestimates the variation among secondary educational institutions there.

Re: America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

#313

Post by esaym » Fri, Mar 11, 2016, 4:05 PM UTC

lagadu wrote: post #212

hasenj wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think 13 year olds should be treated like 5 year olds who are not suitable to do anything except having people laugh at their reactions?

13 year olds should be treated like 13 years olds: they go to school and after they leave they get to go hang out with their boy/girlfriends, do sports, ride their bikes around or play videogames with their friends.

You do realize that has only been the norm for the last 50 years right? And IMO, the last 50 years has been some of the worst.

Re: America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

#314

Post by kruhft » Fri, Mar 11, 2016, 4:07 PM UTC

camelNotation wrote: post #281

The purpose of school is to equip students on how to teach themselves, not to spoon feed them facts. For that reason, philosophy, rhetoric, logic, music, literature, and mathematics should be the priorities. Students who are well-versed in those areas WILL figure out the rest of it a million times faster than some kid who drilled on history, science, or other facts. Teach the kids how to study history, don't feed the…

The purpose of elementary and high school is to create obedient workers that can follow a schedule and respect authority.

I agree that the purpose of university is what you say though.

Re: America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

#315

Post by rogersmith » Fri, Mar 11, 2016, 4:09 PM UTC

tcdent wrote: post #63

esaym wrote: post #32

I don't expect the public school system to teach my children anything. Hence why they won't be attending. Most of the schools I attended growing up were completely useless. Filthy, full of drugs and gangs. Sadly I even listened to some of my teachers more than I did my own parents (indoctrination) which I now see lead me down the wrong path. I don't expect the public school to teach my kids any kind of career skills…

As a publicly educated kid who started working when he was 15-1/2 (the legal minimum age in CA for a work permit at the time), I'd encourage you to rethink the importance of child-like innocence. Not that I regret my choices, but that 13 is just a little too young to be career-oriented, and 16 is probably the bare minimum. I was into computers at that age, but if my decisions were based on profitability or profession…

"Don't underestimate the role of a crappy jobs and bad bosses" This a 1000 times.

As someone who's done his fair share of shit jobs before working in the relative comfort of the "tech industry", this was a valuable lesson in what is the reality of any work relationship (that is: "I work x hours and you give me x monies", that's really all there is to it...).

Lots of tech companies wouldnt get away with their "We're all a big family so you have to do unpaid overtime because we're all a family" bullshit if their employees went through dishwashing or other menial jobs before.

(Simplifying a lot for emphasis, but you get my drift)

Re: America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

#316

Post by TheBeardKing » Fri, Mar 11, 2016, 4:11 PM UTC

UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #296

rb808 wrote: post #290

I'm also a bit tired about hearing about how great Finland & Japan's schools are. How many illegal immigrants do these countries have in their school system? How many with minorities who dont speak the main language at home? How many kids in Japan/Finland dont eat properly because their families can't afford food? Of course the American's student's results are going to be worse on average.

I love how you act like these are inevitable or aren't America's issues. The fact that poor children aren't getting enough food in a affluent Western country is abhorrent, the fact the US refuses to provide comprehensive language classes to the children of immigrants is intentionally meant to disadvantage them, the fact that the US school system has a massive disparity of funding is on purpose so that those in rich n…

I think OP's point is: given our obvious economic equality differences, of course you can expect different educational outcomes. Economic inequality as an indicator of social issues seems an obvious point by now.

Re: America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

#317

Post by esaym » Fri, Mar 11, 2016, 4:16 PM UTC

JabavuAdams wrote: post #159

esaym wrote: post #32

I don't expect the public school system to teach my children anything. Hence why they won't be attending. Most of the schools I attended growing up were completely useless. Filthy, full of drugs and gangs. Sadly I even listened to some of my teachers more than I did my own parents (indoctrination) which I now see lead me down the wrong path. I don't expect the public school to teach my kids any kind of career skills…

Please don't fall into the "math is useless, why do we have to learn this?" camp. The math taught in high-school is pretty simple stuff and if we frowned upon innumeracy as much as we do illiteracy, people would just learn it. Reading is hard but we spend the time and make the students do it anyway. We don't give them the "who needs this reading crap" script. Math skills are life skills for a thinking citizen of a de…

Sadly I'm not that good a math either. I'm trying to figure out ways to make it fun for my kids. The only thing I can think of would involve programming or electrical engineering.I think making a game would be one way. Or doing the math to build a charge pump circuit so you can charge capacitors and zap your friends might be another.

Re: America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

#318

Post by alistairSH » Fri, Mar 11, 2016, 4:17 PM UTC

acjohnson55 wrote: post #85

mdorazio wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't have to be common. You can move to whatever school district you want to (if you have the money for housing there) and get that same level of education. No one's forcing you to send your kids to sub-par public schools.

Surely you don't believe the average American can just up and move to places with great public schools? I was privileged enough to grow up someplace that allowed me to go to a great public school. It's a great city by many measures, but poor in public transport, affordable housing, and working-class jobs.

The OP has the means to home-school, so can live off a single income.

The OP has the means to pay their children nearly double the national average income (calculated on an hourly basis).

So, yes, in this case, the OP more than likely does have the means to move.

Or, the OP also has the means to be actively involved in the local schools and try to make them less awful.

My negative opinions on home-schoolers are based mostly on personal experience with home-schoolers in my area. They generally fall into one of two categories: - fanatical Christians (public school is full of heathens and rapists etc) - fanatical libertarians (I got mine, so fuck you)

Re: America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

#319

Post by dhimes » Fri, Mar 11, 2016, 4:24 PM UTC

rantanplan wrote: post #211

Wingman4l7 wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The public school system is not without its flaws. For many, it can be battling constant abuse by their "peers" -- people neither their social nor mental equals, the like of whom they'll never interact with as adults -- under the guise of "learning social skills". Additionally, it's full of outdated, half-false, and irrelevant curriculum & busywork, pandering to the lowest common denominator and increasingly focused…

All of the things you mentioned are true and still homeschooling is worse. You know why? Our society is not without its flaws either. So unless you can provide a full alternative reality experience to your children, I'd say stand back. And by the way, who's preventing you to teach your children to identify(and thus ignore) the flaws of this system? What you're suggesting is the nuclear option and I don't see any reas…

I'm no expert, but when I was teaching college I had a few homeschooled students. They were usually younger (still high-school aged) and better students than the traditional students in my classes. So I saw a select group.

It seems to me that homeschooling is a great option for kids well away from the mean of the 'bell curve' - in either direction. It's difficult for the schools to properly handle kids that are far from normal. So for the kid who just needs to learn life skills as well as the kid who is taking the college physics class at 15 years old home schooling seems like a reasonable choice- if the parents are up to it.

I think tokenadult has a lot of interesting insight on this subject.

Re: America's High School Graduates Look Like Other Countries' High School Dropouts

#320

Post by hourislate » Fri, Mar 11, 2016, 4:26 PM UTC

The single largest factor in determining how well a student does in High School is poverty.

Poor kids don't have the support nor the means to excel. They typically have to worry about other things. Like earning money or working the farm or just trying to keep the family together anyway they can. While other kids have computers, you didn't even have a desk to do your homework. Other kids get dinner, you go hungry. When your mom was sick it meant staying home to take care of her.

The potential that is lost to poverty is no different than the potential lost to Wars. Millions of people who could have changed the world never get a chance.