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AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

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Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that Lee Sedols hardware is a couple of pounds of wetware running on a peanut butter sandwich suggests the answer to your question is yes. Whether those insights will come soon or not is the big question.

Hey, that wetware is ten time as powerful as what AlphaGo has to work with. Give or take a few orders of magnitude. And given that Lee's brain only uses a portion of that on Go.

> Hey, that wetware is ten time as powerful as what AlphaGo has to work with.

I don't think that's actually true. The hardware that AlphaGo is on is probably a lot more powerful than the one that is available in a single human brain, the big difference is in the software.

See the difference between the very best chess programs of a decade ago versus the ones now.

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#362
post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> AlphaGo plays some unusual moves that go clearly against any classically trained Go players. Moves that simply don't quite fit into the current theories of Go playing, and the world's top players are struggling to explain what's the purpose/strategy behind them. Could AlphaGO be winning in a way similar to left handed fencers having an advantage over right handers by wrong footing them rather than simply being bett…

I'm not a Go player but play other competitive sports. Humans have a herd mentality...as Op mentioned there's certain styles of playing...which has their own strengths and weaknesses. Sometimes people will not examine other styles that may have better strengths and just focus on the exist one. Then comes along someone who 'thinks outside the box' with a new style and revolutionize the playing field. Think Bruce Lee a…

I've seen this happen with "modern tennis" versus how I was taught to play.

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#363
post #212

Someone somewhere asked why a lot of people in the Go community is taking this in a somewhat hard way, here is my hypothesis: Go, unlike Chess, has deep mytho attached to it. Throughout the history of many Asian countries it's seen as the ultimate abstract strategy game that deeply relies on players' intuition, personality, worldview. The best players are not described as "smart", they are described as "wise". I thin…

> And now an AI without emotion, philosophy or personality just comes in and brushes all of that aside and turns Go into a simple game of mathematics Well, I am of the opinion that mathematics is the language that subsumes all other kinds of languages and line of thoughts. In the end we shall be able to describe every idea or thought in purely mathematical form.

I believe that mathematics is just a tall model of implications built from atoms and relations. To say that math underlies everything is to say that we can model things. To say that math is not in something is to say that no set of atoms and relations can account for that something's behavior at a rate better than chance.

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#364
post #239

As someone who studied AI in college and am a reasonably good amateur player, I have been following the matches between Lee and AlphaGo. AlphaGo plays some unusual moves that go clearly against any classically trained Go players. Moves that simply don't quite fit into the current theories of Go playing, and the world's top players are struggling to explain what's the purpose/strategy behind them. I've been giving it…

> I've been giving it some thought. When I was learning to play Go as a teenager in China, I followed a fairly standard, classical learning path. First I learned the rules, then progressively I learn the more abstract theories and tactics. Many of these theories, as I see them now, draw analogies from the physical world, and are used as tools to hide the underlying complexity (chunking), and enable the players to think at a higher level.

The excellent point you're making applies in general to nearly every type of human thinking.

The way we think about other people, our intuitions about probabilities, our predictions about politics, and so on -- all are based on our peculiarly effective, yet woefully approximate, analogy based reasoning.

It shouldn't be surprising in the least when commonly accepted "expert" heuristics are proved wrong by AIs that actually search the space of possibilities with orders of magnitude more depth than we can. What's surprising -- and I think still a mystery -- is how human heuristics are able to perform so well to begin with.

I'm not a Go player, but I saw this same phenomenon as poker bots have surpassed humans in ability. As with AlphaGo, they make plays that fly in the face of years of "expert" wisdom. Of course, as with any revolutionary thinking, some of the new strategies are "obvious" in hindsight, and experts now use them. Others seem to require the computational precision of a computer to be effective in practice, and so can't be co-opted. That is, we can't extract a new human-compatible "heuristic" from them -- the complexity is just irreducible.

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to thank you for this comment. It's this kind of subtle, low-key, informed speculation that generates good, hard sci-fi concepts, which are absolutely relevant to my WIP novel. "oh what if the machine suddenly came alive!?" has been done 1000 times. But such concepts like: a computer can detect and act patterns which we cannot, in ways that are almost, if not possibly intelligence, are magnitudes more believab…

Is it about a tyrannical super-AI that maintains power over the human race by strategically releasing butterflies into the wild at specific times and locations?

Why would it bother if it can just convince people to do the thing it wants done by talking to them?

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#366
post #321

Does anybody know how many CPUs and GPUs they're using this time? It was 1200+ and 700+ in October against Fan Hui. It would be interesting to know if AlphaGo became better only because the extra learning or also because of extra hardware. I googled for that and didn't find anything but I could have missed the right source.

Apparently 1920 CPUs and 280 GPUs according to The Economist.

Thanks!

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#367
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Art is, mostly, domain of knowledge not yet claimed by science. When a technique turns art into science, it means that humans are ready to tackle even harder problems. Think about medicine before and after microscopes. Holy art turned into boring science: huge win for human race. If an AI won the next Hugo award, I would be rejoiced. It wouldn't mean the end of literature at all; it would mean that humans are ready t…

We already have a successful AI classical music writer https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emily_Howell We have all kinds of visual art made by computers and AI - prom painting from photos to abstract art to 3D renders. We have computers writing poems and haiku. The only thing that's missing is the conceptual creation, which, let's be honest, most human artists struggle at as well. So writing and interesting story is not…

None of this stuff is that good yet. I see no fundamental limit, but let's not pretend that machine-generated music or poetry is as good as the best human stuff, yet.

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#368
post #266

Someone somewhere asked why a lot of people in the Go community is taking this in a somewhat hard way, here is my hypothesis: Go, unlike Chess, has deep mytho attached to it. Throughout the history of many Asian countries it's seen as the ultimate abstract strategy game that deeply relies on players' intuition, personality, worldview. The best players are not described as "smart", they are described as "wise". I thin…

I follow neither Go nor martial arts, but there seem to be some interesting parallels here with some emotional reactions to what appears to be the relative weakness of karate or kung fu versus grappling in UFC. The mystical aura of these martial arts as traditionally practised for hundreds of years suddenly falls away in the face of what often seems like brute force.

it was high time that these ancient martial arts were shaken from their comfortable reverie. what were once based on actual fights centuries ago had devolved into pedantic adherence to ritual and form. it actually started way before the UFC: bruce lee shook the kung fu establishment with jeet kune do in the 1960s. helio and carlos gracie shook up jiujitsu by incorporating real world situations. you are actually now seeing wing chun make a comeback. look at conor mcgregor's unorthodox style and you will see phenomenal angles that come from kung fu and tae kwon do (karate), spinning leg kicks that are actually landing, switch stances, etc.

i believe all these ancient arts are making a big comeback. the roots are still there, they just got concealed over the centures.

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#369
post #137

Someone somewhere asked why a lot of people in the Go community is taking this in a somewhat hard way, here is my hypothesis: Go, unlike Chess, has deep mytho attached to it. Throughout the history of many Asian countries it's seen as the ultimate abstract strategy game that deeply relies on players' intuition, personality, worldview. The best players are not described as "smart", they are described as "wise". I thin…

Actually this AI kind of confirms these myths, since its basis are not in mathematics but in neural networks. While it could be argued to be just math, so is the brain, but that's besides the point. The point is, even the programmers have no idea what the AI is thinking. The way it picks moves is very similar to how top professionals do. Intuition is reduced to memories stored vaguely as neural connections.

You can still beat Go using "simpler" math. If you have enough compute power, you can always just minimax the whole game tree. Neural networks aren't un-mathematical; they're just a slightly more complicated technique for discovering an approximation to a function that does what you want (even if you're not sure what that function looks like internally).

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#370
post #239

As someone who studied AI in college and am a reasonably good amateur player, I have been following the matches between Lee and AlphaGo. AlphaGo plays some unusual moves that go clearly against any classically trained Go players. Moves that simply don't quite fit into the current theories of Go playing, and the world's top players are struggling to explain what's the purpose/strategy behind them. I've been giving it…

>It's like another intelligent species opening up a new way of looking at the world (at least for this very specific domain). and much to our surprise, it's a new way that's more powerful than ours. It's not like this at all; let's not do this sort of thing. Humans are inveterate myth makers (viz. your description of how people conceive the Go board as army units), and our impositions on the world are easily confused…

> We made this, and it is not an intelligence, it is a series of mathematical optimization functions

You can say the same about your mind too which is a bunch of optimization nodes. If something is intelligent, does it matter if it's evolved in nature or created by a species who is evolved in nature?

> In the future I hope that this research will move more towards models that provide interpretable results I think it's not really possible to understand in detail how these networks operate on the level of nodes, because emergent behavior is necessarily more complex than the sum of its parts.

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