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AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

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Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#331

Post by sdenton4 »

Ensorceled wrote: post #322
fhe wrote: post #239

As someone who studied AI in college and am a reasonably good amateur player, I have been following the matches between Lee and AlphaGo. AlphaGo plays some unusual moves that go clearly against any classically trained Go players. Moves that simply don't quite fit into the current theories of Go playing, and the world's top players are struggling to explain what's the purpose/strategy behind them. I've been giving it…

> AlphaGo plays some unusual moves that go clearly against any classically trained Go players. Moves that simply don't quite fit into the current theories of Go playing, and the world's top players are struggling to explain what's the purpose/strategy behind them. Could AlphaGO be winning in a way similar to left handed fencers having an advantage over right handers by wrong footing them rather than simply being bett…

Seems unlikely. Training was partly from human games, and partly from self play; if there's some new, off book heuristics at play, there's no way to know that humans would respond poorly to them. Though I suppose it's possible it would notice that humans do poorly on simply off book moves generally.

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#332

Post by criddell »

awl130 wrote: post #323
criddell wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now imagine the winning author of the next Hugo Award turns out to be an AI, how unsettling would that be. I've been thinking precisely about that. I think a book written by a machine will make the NYT bestseller list within our lifetimes (I would give it a 75% chance within 10 years, but that's just a gut feeling).

the first AI to replicate the success of: an oscar-winning movie; a pulitzer prize novel; a tony award winning musical-- will all at once devalue the IP value of all creative content worldwide by a measurable degree. it will be like watching a global stock market crash in terms of valuation. but, as in chess, and as in go, humans will probably learn from this AI and emulate it as well.

I'm not sure what will happen. Creative works aren't generally fungible. If I order tickets to go see Jack White play, I'm not going to be tempted by Nickelback tickets that are half the price.

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#333

Post by fma »

Ensorceled wrote: post #322
fhe wrote: post #239

As someone who studied AI in college and am a reasonably good amateur player, I have been following the matches between Lee and AlphaGo. AlphaGo plays some unusual moves that go clearly against any classically trained Go players. Moves that simply don't quite fit into the current theories of Go playing, and the world's top players are struggling to explain what's the purpose/strategy behind them. I've been giving it…

> AlphaGo plays some unusual moves that go clearly against any classically trained Go players. Moves that simply don't quite fit into the current theories of Go playing, and the world's top players are struggling to explain what's the purpose/strategy behind them. Could AlphaGO be winning in a way similar to left handed fencers having an advantage over right handers by wrong footing them rather than simply being bett…

I'm not a Go player but play other competitive sports. Humans have a herd mentality...as Op mentioned there's certain styles of playing...which has their own strengths and weaknesses. Sometimes people will not examine other styles that may have better strengths and just focus on the exist one. Then comes along someone who 'thinks outside the box' with a new style and revolutionize the playing field.

Think Bruce Lee and the creation of Jeet Kune Do. Before him everyone concentrated on improving one style by following it classically, rather than just thinking of 'how do I defeat someone'.

IMHO Lee is the best at the current style of Go. AlphaGO is the best at playing Go. Maybe humans can devise a better style and defeat AlphaGo, but I'm sure AlphaGo can adapt easily if another style exists.

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#334

Post by [deleted] »

gsklee wrote: post #156
Cookingboy wrote: post #116

Someone somewhere asked why a lot of people in the Go community is taking this in a somewhat hard way, here is my hypothesis: Go, unlike Chess, has deep mytho attached to it. Throughout the history of many Asian countries it's seen as the ultimate abstract strategy game that deeply relies on players' intuition, personality, worldview. The best players are not described as "smart", they are described as "wise". I thin…

On a more realistic side note... Professional Go players devote decades in training ever since their youth, giving up normal educations and lots of other more lucrative opportunities for their lives. It's very easy to imagine their frustrations now that their life-time devotion actually means nothing in front of the AI. It's an upright denial to the way of life they so chose and devoted. IMHO Google should donate the…

[deleted]

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#335

Post by statsaresimple »

fhe wrote: post #239

As someone who studied AI in college and am a reasonably good amateur player, I have been following the matches between Lee and AlphaGo. AlphaGo plays some unusual moves that go clearly against any classically trained Go players. Moves that simply don't quite fit into the current theories of Go playing, and the world's top players are struggling to explain what's the purpose/strategy behind them. I've been giving it…

A great breakthrough could be to decode the information contained in the feature space of the nn or the rnn. A topological language in which shapes and chains are explained by analogies with real world situations and actions. Being able to share our vision and communicate our intentions (the weight given to the distinct features and the links among the several layers of the nn - the overall plan) should transform the concept of AI into one of CAI communication between intelligent agents to create a synergistic approach).

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#336

Post by oldmanjay »

the_af wrote: post #283
xiaq wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Art is, mostly, domain of knowledge not yet claimed by science. When a technique turns art into science, it means that humans are ready to tackle even harder problems. Think about medicine before and after microscopes. Holy art turned into boring science: huge win for human race. If an AI won the next Hugo award, I would be rejoiced. It wouldn't mean the end of literature at all; it would mean that humans are ready t…

I disagree. Art is mostly not a "problem" to be "solved" by science. Art is not graded in a scale of difficulty, from "easy" to "harder" art that mankind has to gradually reach. Literature is not a lower form of art that we must strive to automate so that we can dedicate ourselves to more "complex" forms. You are confusing the unknown with art.

You confused the problem statement. What is being solved is "how do we created an AI that can produce art" not "art"

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#337

Post by harperlee »

edko wrote: post #314
saalweachter wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it'd be terrifying. Imagine the best book you've ever read. Entrancing, enlightening, cathartic. You reach the end, and it's ... perfect. Oh hey, a sequel. Wow, the sequel is just as good as the first book. It expands upon it without diminishing the original -- you feel better, more complete for having read it. Wait, is that a third book in the series? Wow, it's even better than the first two! A fourth -- wel…

What you describe is a push situation: the books come out and you have to try to keep up to speed with their release. It could however, also be a pull: whenever you feel like reading an amazing book, you just ask the AI to generate one for you, optionally continuing the last story you read.

Not one, but the best book that you need to read in this particular moment. Full with all the advice that you were seeking, with the right amount of new things that you learn and familiar knowledge that you reinforce. The protagonist casually comments things very related to the open issues in your work, and helps you see the particular issue you're having with your boss from another perspective. With just the right amount of common content so you can comment with your peers at work (perhaps your office pal is reading the story of a side-character in your book - the watercooler conversation is great, he gives you new insights for the reading of this evening - and now you both agree on the discussion thread of last week). Hey, what's that? It seems that the new upgrade is now able to create scenes in Unity with the scenarios that are covered by your next novel. Great! Also there's this interactive package where your work items can be not only an input but also an output and turns your work into a game. By the way your girlfriend has entered your book, let's switch to some of the shared scenes... let's put on our VR glasses... good. Now I only need someone to feed and clean me.

Scary :)

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#338

Post by astazangasta »

fhe wrote: post #239

As someone who studied AI in college and am a reasonably good amateur player, I have been following the matches between Lee and AlphaGo. AlphaGo plays some unusual moves that go clearly against any classically trained Go players. Moves that simply don't quite fit into the current theories of Go playing, and the world's top players are struggling to explain what's the purpose/strategy behind them. I've been giving it…

>It's like another intelligent species opening up a new way of looking at the world (at least for this very specific domain). and much to our surprise, it's a new way that's more powerful than ours.

It's not like this at all; let's not do this sort of thing. Humans are inveterate myth makers (viz. your description of how people conceive the Go board as army units), and our impositions on the world are easily confused for reality.

In this case, there's no "intelligent species" at work other than humans. We made this, and it is not an intelligence, it is a series of mathematical optimization functions. We have been doing this for decades, and these systems, while sophisticated, are mathematical toys that we have applied. We built and trained this thing to do exactly this.

As a student of AI you know that convolutional neural networks are black boxes and are hard to interpret. A different choice of machine would have yielded more insight about how it is operating (for example, decision trees are easier to interpret). The inscrutability of the system is not a product of its complexity; even a simple neural network is hard to understand.

This, actually, is my primary objection to using CNNs as the basic unit of machine learning - they don't help US learn, they require us to put our faith in machines that are trained to operate in ways that are resistant to inspection. In the future I hope that this research will move more towards models that provide interpretable results, so they ARE actually a tool for improved understanding.

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol again in match 2 of 5

#340

Post by tromp »

eginhard wrote: post #281
taneq wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was one move that literally caused the 9th dan commentator to do a triple-take. It apparently turned out to be super effective.

Specifically, move 37 at O10: https://youtu.be/l-GsfyVCBu0?t=1h17m45s

that link doesn't work for me. but these do:

http://gobase.org/replay/?gam=/games/inter/matches/AlphaGo/L...

https://gogameguru.com/alphago-races-ahead-2-0-lee-sedol/

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