Need a raise, how to ask? • Hacker News Board

Re: Need a raise, how to ask?

#11

Post by JSeymourATL » Thu, Mar 10, 2016, 3:46 PM UTC

djmill wrote: post #4

FroshKiller wrote: post #2

Why do you need a raise?

I feel as though I need a raise because my responsibilities have changed drastically since my last raise. I'm now managing people and leading a project. On top of that, my pay has always been less than that of other folks in the industry doing the same work. These other folks that I've talked to also don't have to deal with the pain points of working with offshore folks in a timezone with a difference of 12 hours. I'…

> I need a raise because my responsibilities have changed drastically since my last raise.

This is entirely fair, as your contribution and value to the company has also increased.

At the very least, the company should be paying market rates for your services. As a benchmark, median RoR guys in Boston are getting $115k > http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=ruby+on+rails,+supervise+offsho...

How to Ask-

Understand that perceptions dominate all parts of negotiation. It's important to take the emotional temperature of your boss and deal with it. Is he happy with your performance?

On this subject, Stuart Diamond is masterful > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liCOqUQzpQs

Re: Need a raise, how to ask?

#12

Post by arielweisberg » Thu, Mar 10, 2016, 3:55 PM UTC

djmill wrote: post #10

dudul wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree with the idea to get an offer first, and then try to negotiate. However, I would not put it as bluntly as "give me more money, or I go work there". They may yield this time. Especially if you are an important member of the team with some exclusive knowledge (i.e. you're the only one who knows the codebase for component Foo, and if they lose you they are screwed). But, they will likely be bitter about it. Try to…

Okay, very interesting... I like the way you think. Luckily, I built various components and the entire CSS layer (which gets very complex) is really only understood by me... which is a nice monopoly from time to time. But yeah, if I leave I know I'll be forced to continue doing the same work but also forced to educate the entire team, etc. on my knowledge. But you're right, I don't want to make anything personal, it'…

You might be surprised. Management can be very bad at economics and negotiation resulting in them paying in recruiting and on boarding costs more than what you asked for.

This is why it's key to always have an offer some place you are willing to work. Never bring up an offer some place you aren't willing to work.

That said you have to respect an employer's investment in hiring and on boarding. Switching jobs every year is a problem for employers. I think 2 years is a minimum and 4 years is what I target. I also hate interviewing.

After 4 years all bets are absolutely off and my tolerance for making less than what I could make elsewhere for equivalent work is close to zero.

Re: Need a raise, how to ask?

#13

Post by arielweisberg » Thu, Mar 10, 2016, 4:05 PM UTC

dudul wrote: post #9

arielweisberg wrote: post #5

Get an outside offer from some place you are willing to work at. Either they match it or they don't it's all one to you. Frame it as you having to do what's right for you and that you can't afford to leave that kind of money on the table. Working careers are short and you will never get that money back if pass on it. It's the truth and it's something any half way decent manager can understand. It's not personal it's…

Agree with the idea to get an offer first, and then try to negotiate. However, I would not put it as bluntly as "give me more money, or I go work there". They may yield this time. Especially if you are an important member of the team with some exclusive knowledge (i.e. you're the only one who knows the codebase for component Foo, and if they lose you they are screwed). But, they will likely be bitter about it. Try to…

I agree there is a risk but the rewards are massive over the course of a career. Unless you work for a select few companies with passable compensation practices you will lose millions of dollars once you take into account saving and investing the money you earn earlier in your career.

There is an element of knowing who you are talking to. You may even be the one to educate them on the economics of retention and BATNA and so on. I have found that even emotionally invested people can understand the economics of it and the need for their employees to do what is right for them.

It's a strange one that thinks that their mission is more important than someone's future. Probably someone you don't want to be working for anyways.

Re: Need a raise, how to ask?

#14

Post by DrNuke » Thu, Mar 10, 2016, 4:25 PM UTC

You know already: without an offer, you are worth what you are currently paid. That said, raising informally the issue with your boss will let you know where you do stand.

Re: Need a raise, how to ask?

#15

Post by djmill » Thu, Mar 10, 2016, 4:58 PM UTC

JSeymourATL wrote: post #11

djmill wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel as though I need a raise because my responsibilities have changed drastically since my last raise. I'm now managing people and leading a project. On top of that, my pay has always been less than that of other folks in the industry doing the same work. These other folks that I've talked to also don't have to deal with the pain points of working with offshore folks in a timezone with a difference of 12 hours. I'…

> I need a raise because my responsibilities have changed drastically since my last raise. This is entirely fair, as your contribution and value to the company has also increased. At the very least, the company should be paying market rates for your services. As a benchmark, median RoR guys in Boston are getting $115k > http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=ruby+on+rails,+supervise+offsho... How to Ask- Understand that percep…

Awesome, thanks for the feedback. I've literally never had anything negative come from my bosses, it's only been praise about how much I've grown and to keep up the good work. When I moved away to go remote, none of my bosses were worried and they all skipped my 1-on-1's with them for the entire first 6 weeks after I started working remote... to me I felt like they felt as if I was capable and there were no worries on either end.

I agree, market value in Boston is very high and thus why I feel like I'm being underpaid for my work and responsibilities - even if I'm living in an area where the average is slightly lower.

Re: Need a raise, how to ask?

#16

Post by djmill » Thu, Mar 10, 2016, 4:58 PM UTC

arielweisberg wrote: post #12

djmill wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, very interesting... I like the way you think. Luckily, I built various components and the entire CSS layer (which gets very complex) is really only understood by me... which is a nice monopoly from time to time. But yeah, if I leave I know I'll be forced to continue doing the same work but also forced to educate the entire team, etc. on my knowledge. But you're right, I don't want to make anything personal, it'…

You might be surprised. Management can be very bad at economics and negotiation resulting in them paying in recruiting and on boarding costs more than what you asked for. This is why it's key to always have an offer some place you are willing to work. Never bring up an offer some place you aren't willing to work. That said you have to respect an employer's investment in hiring and on boarding. Switching jobs every ye…

Gotcha that makes sense. Part of me feels like I'm being greedy and part of me actually feels like I'm being taken advantage of in certain ways, so I'm personally struggling with whether or not to ask for a raise anyway... you make very good points here, thanks!

Re: Need a raise, how to ask?

#17

Post by evm9 » Thu, Mar 10, 2016, 5:06 PM UTC

dudul wrote: post #9

arielweisberg wrote: post #5

Get an outside offer from some place you are willing to work at. Either they match it or they don't it's all one to you. Frame it as you having to do what's right for you and that you can't afford to leave that kind of money on the table. Working careers are short and you will never get that money back if pass on it. It's the truth and it's something any half way decent manager can understand. It's not personal it's…

Agree with the idea to get an offer first, and then try to negotiate. However, I would not put it as bluntly as "give me more money, or I go work there". They may yield this time. Especially if you are an important member of the team with some exclusive knowledge (i.e. you're the only one who knows the codebase for component Foo, and if they lose you they are screwed). But, they will likely be bitter about it. Try to…

I like this approach, it's the most careful one.

Though if you truly know that you are valuable to your company and they are going to pay you what you're worth when you make the ask, no need to even get another offer. If it's such a good market you should have no problem finding another gig.

I'm in SoCal doing Ruby, Rails, JavaScript stuff and I was underpaid for the first 1.5 years at a new gig. Since I was confident I could get another gig paying 20-40% more with ease, I didn't bother getting an offer first, when I made the decision, I just went in the next day and took care of business.

Told my manager I have an offer on the table for FIFTY PERCENT more than what I was currently earning (no such offer existed), they matched it (including other perks), and then I was paid 1.5x more. Been here for another year since then, no problems.

YMMV, make the best decision based on your situation. This risk may not be worth it, but it sounds like you're in good standing with your company and provide them good value.

Re: Need a raise, how to ask?

#18

Post by gmarx » Thu, Mar 10, 2016, 5:11 PM UTC

You don't need an outside offer to ask for a raise. The cap for raises is nonsense. It may present a psychological barrier to your manager but mostly it is a prop to point to; so your manager can say "not my fault- see there's a sign that says no raises above 10%". The trick is they can give you more than 10% if it involves a promotion. The other trick is that raises are difficult to ask for.

You have a cogent argument for a promotion and raise. Ask for it. Present your argument minus anything that could be viewed as a threat (like interviewing at Google).

Re: Need a raise, how to ask?

#19

Post by alain94040 » Thu, Mar 10, 2016, 5:16 PM UTC

> I know I can find work that pays more, yet I do not have another offer

Read the true story I wrote below [1]. You don't want to look like a mercenary ("give me a raise or I quit"). But you do want to be paid fairly. Get an "informal" offer. Then tell your boss that you really want to stay with them, but the "outside market" is telling you that you are underpaid.

That approach has worked for me in real life.

[1] https://medium.com/@alain94040/how-to-negotiate-a-raise-9166...

Re: Need a raise, how to ask?

#20

Post by arielweisberg » Thu, Mar 10, 2016, 5:31 PM UTC

djmill wrote: post #16

arielweisberg wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might be surprised. Management can be very bad at economics and negotiation resulting in them paying in recruiting and on boarding costs more than what you asked for. This is why it's key to always have an offer some place you are willing to work. Never bring up an offer some place you aren't willing to work. That said you have to respect an employer's investment in hiring and on boarding. Switching jobs every ye…

Gotcha that makes sense. Part of me feels like I'm being greedy and part of me actually feels like I'm being taken advantage of in certain ways, so I'm personally struggling with whether or not to ask for a raise anyway... you make very good points here, thanks!

Greed is good. You can be greedy you just have to be fair and respect your employer's time and investment. They are not entitled to your labor in perpetuity just because they hired you. You have to give them something or risk burning bridges and not developing a professional network.

Feeling like your being taken advantage is something I think you should never express. One HN poster put it very eloquently. At the end of the month when you are paid you and your employe are square. You don't owe them anything and they don't owe you anything. By continuing to work there you are agreeing to trade the next month for what they have promised to pay you and no more.

Stay away from talking about the past. You can't collect on perceived past debts. That's also why I don't like to make compensation about performance. It's up to my employer to decide whether the business value I deliver is worth what I cost. If you have an offer in hand this is what you cost. It's not ambiguous or nebulous like performance and that's why managers love to talk about performance. Don't indulge them.

Sure I have felt taken advantage of, but it's not really your employer. It's the game. It's crap and we all have to work within it to maximize the value we can realize. Your employer is doing it and so should you.

And don't think I haven't lost with that strategy before. I have worked for people who did not recognize the business value I provided. It's not a big deal. It happens. You move on and maybe they are right or maybe you are right. Maybe the next thing is better than what you had or maybe it isn't