Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug • Hacker News Board

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#141

Post by ewzimm » Wed, Mar 09, 2016, 8:40 PM UTC

twblalock wrote: post #64

evincarofautumn wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m an alcoholic. I’ve cut back on my use significantly, and I’m currently in a period of abstinence. Because alcohol is legal and socially accepted, it’s entirely my responsibility to manage my behaviour and keep my use to non-problematic levels. Not everyone has the social support to make that happen. I think legalisation would be beneficial, as you say, because the criminal justice system does not serve addicts. H…

Why should your drug use, or anyone else's, create obligations for other people to support you, treat you, and help you overcome addiction? The libertarian case for legalizing drugs falls apart if society has to take responsibility for providing support systems as a reaction to the actions of individual drug users. Frankly, most people would rather continue to ban drugs than pay for treatment for people who abuse the…

If people are acting as a danger to others because of drug abuse, that's already illegal without any kind of drug prohibition. The only people who are added to the prison system by prohibition are the ones who aren't bothering anyone and the ones who are selling them. Of course, this leads to a monopoly on drug sales by criminals. What do we possibly have to gain by giving criminal organizations a monopoly on drug sales and incarcerating people for choosing to ingest the wrong chemicals?

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#142

Post by the_mitsuhiko » Wed, Mar 09, 2016, 8:40 PM UTC

krschultz wrote: post #15

I've never taken an illegal drug in my life. I've smoked a cigarette about 5 times. I drank in college but lately I've cut that out of my life as well. I had a security clearance with drug testing requirements for a while and now I just don't like the feeling of a hangover from alcohol or the risk of ingesting random plants/chemicals made by shady people. In short: I'm the most vanilla, square, anti-drug person you c…

> Yet I can not for the life of me understand why drugs are illegal. Not just pot, all drugs. I'm totally onboard with making it our public policy that we want to reduce the use of drugs. That makes perfect sense to me. It does not make sense to me why anyone still believes that using the criminal justice system as the mechanism for getting to that goal is the right path.

Look at other countries and you can see that decriminalising it has no positive impact on the actual addicts. Austria for instance will just slap you for drug usage and put you into a rehabilitation program. But there are just way too many people who want to be hooked to them and will continue taking them under doctor's supervision and not succeed in stopping their addiction. This has a terrible impact on the healthcare system and the costs to the country. Not helping them however would not be any better because too many would end up on the streets.

Recently they tried to make "dealing to a friend" possible where the first offence of dealing drugs will not give you a strong punishment and record. The end result was that dealing went up in Vienna and people are now very unhappy with the end result.

I know many Americans like the idea of decriminalising it because the war on drugs is failing, but there is quite a bit of evidence from other countries that there is good reason drugs are not legal.

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#143

Post by martinald » Wed, Mar 09, 2016, 8:42 PM UTC

drug3737 wrote: post #99

SilasX wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For context, it's not just the people running private prisons, but also public prison guard unions: http://ordinary-gentlemen.com/timkowal/2011/06/the-role-of-t...

The vast majority of drug offenders in prison are drug dealers, not drug users. It's extremely rare for drug users to be imprisoned. It boggles my mind that this propaganda is kept being pushed.

Most low level drug dealers are generally paying for their own supply.

At my (very highly regarded) university in the UK you'd see this all the time. Pick up bigger bits, resell to friends, keep the "profit" for your own fun.

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#144

Post by catshirt » Wed, Mar 09, 2016, 8:44 PM UTC

brandonmenc wrote: post #128

Lots of comments from people who have no experience with chronic pain aghast that doctors would fulfill patient "demands" for painkillers instead of treating the underlying cause. Pain is self-report, so all a doctor can do is prescribe based on patient demand. Maybe they can't identify an underlying cause, or maybe the treatment (ex: back surgery) is too risky. Spine surgery that might not work and can leave you wit…

there is a possible outcome of back surgery that furthers your point and is (i guess arguably) worse than loss of bladder control, which is worse pain.

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#145

Post by merpnderp » Wed, Mar 09, 2016, 8:45 PM UTC

digler999 wrote: post #123

merpnderp wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"That also includes physicians." That is exactly my point. Doctors shouldn't have to make patients jump through hoops in order to prescribe medicine. Maybe I should have stated it clearer, the remedy I want is for doctors to be able to prescribe as they see fit without the DEA raiding their office and throwing them in jail. As for over prescribing, that should be no more dangerous than any other medicine. If my docto…

I misunderstood, sorry, I thought you meant the pt should have the "agency" to decide how to take their painkillers. I don't have the data to back this up, but I don't think the DEA is the primary impetus for drug testing patients. What I surmise is that most likely, a double-blind academic study was done, just like how they establish every other standard treatment protocol. Likely, they determined that drug-testing…

I upvoted your comment because I agree with your points, I just think doctors should be able to do what they think is right without fear of prosecution. And at my friend's pain management doctor's office, there was a big sign in the front room enumerating the steps he felt he needed to take him to protect himself from DEA prosecution. My sister's a lawyer who I asked about the sign and she said he was probably being extremely conservative, but that doctors don't even want to show up on the DEA's radar. Doctors are human like anyone else, and having a DEA agent ask to see your records would scare them silly, just like anyone else. And patients suffer. A lot.

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#146

Post by herge » Wed, Mar 09, 2016, 8:45 PM UTC

leeleelee wrote: post #132

krschultz wrote: post #15

I've never taken an illegal drug in my life. I've smoked a cigarette about 5 times. I drank in college but lately I've cut that out of my life as well. I had a security clearance with drug testing requirements for a while and now I just don't like the feeling of a hangover from alcohol or the risk of ingesting random plants/chemicals made by shady people. In short: I'm the most vanilla, square, anti-drug person you c…

Another interesting thing about the war on drugs is that during prohibition, the constitution was amended for the government to legally be able stop the sale of alcohol. On the other hand, for other "hard" drugs, there is nothing in the constitution that supports the criminalization of drugs. Unless I am missing something. Completely aside from that fact, I do agree that it should be treated as a public health issue.…

There's nothing in the U.S. constitution about airplanes either, and yet the FAA still exists. However, the U.S. constitution does talk at length about both congress who can write laws (like the laws banning hard drugs), and the judicial branch who can overturn laws that contravene the constitution.

The 18th amendment was added to the constitution not by some legislative need, but to make a politicized statement where another amendment to the constitution would be required to overturn it (the 21st in this case).

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#147

Post by merpnderp » Wed, Mar 09, 2016, 8:49 PM UTC

twblalock wrote: post #64

evincarofautumn wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m an alcoholic. I’ve cut back on my use significantly, and I’m currently in a period of abstinence. Because alcohol is legal and socially accepted, it’s entirely my responsibility to manage my behaviour and keep my use to non-problematic levels. Not everyone has the social support to make that happen. I think legalisation would be beneficial, as you say, because the criminal justice system does not serve addicts. H…

Why should your drug use, or anyone else's, create obligations for other people to support you, treat you, and help you overcome addiction? The libertarian case for legalizing drugs falls apart if society has to take responsibility for providing support systems as a reaction to the actions of individual drug users. Frankly, most people would rather continue to ban drugs than pay for treatment for people who abuse the…

Libertarians agree that society needs to take responsibility for providing a support system. It's just their definition of society differs from yours. They believe interested parties should take up the burden, where you apparently mean the government should provide those services, which means forcing people to provide those services.

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#148

Post by elipsey » Wed, Mar 09, 2016, 8:50 PM UTC

twblalock wrote: post #64

evincarofautumn wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m an alcoholic. I’ve cut back on my use significantly, and I’m currently in a period of abstinence. Because alcohol is legal and socially accepted, it’s entirely my responsibility to manage my behaviour and keep my use to non-problematic levels. Not everyone has the social support to make that happen. I think legalisation would be beneficial, as you say, because the criminal justice system does not serve addicts. H…

Why should your drug use, or anyone else's, create obligations for other people to support you, treat you, and help you overcome addiction? The libertarian case for legalizing drugs falls apart if society has to take responsibility for providing support systems as a reaction to the actions of individual drug users. Frankly, most people would rather continue to ban drugs than pay for treatment for people who abuse the…

>>Why should your drug use, or anyone else's, create obligations for other people to support you, treat you, and help you overcome addiction?

Suposing that it doesn't, doing nothing would be a hell of lot cheaper and easier than what we are doing now.

Opiodes are derived from cheap agricultural products. A tablet of herion needn't cost more than asprin. The explicit goal of federal enforcment agencies is to raise prices by restrict supply. You and I are spending a fortune on that project, and it's not helping anyone except the sprawling profession of drug-warriors, and the black market gangsters. Ok, maybe it helped HSBC a little. Kind of ironic, isn't it?

This is one of those things that makes me wonder why we even have economists if no one will listen to them.

Go get a cup of coffee, fire up youtube, and listen Milton Friedman's talk "Socialism & The War On Drugs."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIQ5_4tOx0U

If you don't like that one, pick one from any decade since the Nixon administration. :)

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#149

Post by mattmanser » Wed, Mar 09, 2016, 8:52 PM UTC

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #142

krschultz wrote: post #15

I've never taken an illegal drug in my life. I've smoked a cigarette about 5 times. I drank in college but lately I've cut that out of my life as well. I had a security clearance with drug testing requirements for a while and now I just don't like the feeling of a hangover from alcohol or the risk of ingesting random plants/chemicals made by shady people. In short: I'm the most vanilla, square, anti-drug person you c…

> Yet I can not for the life of me understand why drugs are illegal. Not just pot, all drugs. I'm totally onboard with making it our public policy that we want to reduce the use of drugs. That makes perfect sense to me. It does not make sense to me why anyone still believes that using the criminal justice system as the mechanism for getting to that goal is the right path. Look at other countries and you can see that…

Portugal, has a drop in HIV and deaths in addicts.

Also, your last sentence is unsupported. What evidence? What good reasons?

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#150

Post by ewzimm » Wed, Mar 09, 2016, 8:53 PM UTC

btbuildem wrote: post #136

krschultz wrote: post #15

I've never taken an illegal drug in my life. I've smoked a cigarette about 5 times. I drank in college but lately I've cut that out of my life as well. I had a security clearance with drug testing requirements for a while and now I just don't like the feeling of a hangover from alcohol or the risk of ingesting random plants/chemicals made by shady people. In short: I'm the most vanilla, square, anti-drug person you c…

> Yet I can not for the life of me understand why drugs are illegal Because there's a hugely profitable industry in the policing, prosecution and incarceration of people

Also you could add racism. Most of these drugs caused social scares when they became popular with minority communities and so people pushed to make them illegal as a roundabout way to target people they were afraid of.