Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug • Hacker News Board

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#81

Post by pessimizer » Wed, Mar 09, 2016, 7:25 PM UTC

twblalock wrote: post #64

evincarofautumn wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m an alcoholic. I’ve cut back on my use significantly, and I’m currently in a period of abstinence. Because alcohol is legal and socially accepted, it’s entirely my responsibility to manage my behaviour and keep my use to non-problematic levels. Not everyone has the social support to make that happen. I think legalisation would be beneficial, as you say, because the criminal justice system does not serve addicts. H…

Why should your drug use, or anyone else's, create obligations for other people to support you, treat you, and help you overcome addiction? The libertarian case for legalizing drugs falls apart if society has to take responsibility for providing support systems as a reaction to the actions of individual drug users. Frankly, most people would rather continue to ban drugs than pay for treatment for people who abuse the…

> Why should your drug use, or anyone else's, create obligations

Where did you detect this suggestion?

> The libertarian case for legalizing drugs falls apart if society has to take responsibility for providing support systems as a reaction to the actions of individual drug users.

That's also where the libertarian case falls apart for legalizing cheeseburgers, and motorcycles.

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#82

Post by drug3737 » Wed, Mar 09, 2016, 7:31 PM UTC

krschultz wrote: post #15

I've never taken an illegal drug in my life. I've smoked a cigarette about 5 times. I drank in college but lately I've cut that out of my life as well. I had a security clearance with drug testing requirements for a while and now I just don't like the feeling of a hangover from alcohol or the risk of ingesting random plants/chemicals made by shady people. In short: I'm the most vanilla, square, anti-drug person you c…

Singapore, Indonesia and many other Asian countries have more draconian drug laws than the USA. Their drug usage and crime and rates are far lower than the US, Portugal, Netherlands, Canada and other countries with more lenient drug laws.

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#83

Post by thescriptkiddie » Wed, Mar 09, 2016, 7:32 PM UTC

twblalock wrote: post #64

evincarofautumn wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m an alcoholic. I’ve cut back on my use significantly, and I’m currently in a period of abstinence. Because alcohol is legal and socially accepted, it’s entirely my responsibility to manage my behaviour and keep my use to non-problematic levels. Not everyone has the social support to make that happen. I think legalisation would be beneficial, as you say, because the criminal justice system does not serve addicts. H…

Why should your drug use, or anyone else's, create obligations for other people to support you, treat you, and help you overcome addiction? The libertarian case for legalizing drugs falls apart if society has to take responsibility for providing support systems as a reaction to the actions of individual drug users. Frankly, most people would rather continue to ban drugs than pay for treatment for people who abuse the…

I wouldn't say the argument falls apart. We have an obligation to help these people no matter what. We already spend lots of money trying to help them, even though we don't do a very good job of it. That would not change.

The libertarian argument against prohibition boils down to this: The government can't stop people from doing anything, it can only punish people after they've done it. Substance abuse is something we'd really rather people didn't do, but punishing people after they've done it doesn't help anyone. Therefore, substance abuse shouldn't be punished.

It's also worth noting that most libertarians aren't fiscally conservative capital-L Libertarians. Most of them do not have a problem paying for social services.

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#84

Post by dionidium » Wed, Mar 09, 2016, 7:33 PM UTC

toufka wrote: post #32

teslabox wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of the prescription opioids are contaminated with Tylenol, which is very toxic to the liver when consumed in excess.

They incorporate tylenol to help prevent addiction and overdose. Too much tylenol makes you sick - very unpleasantly. Too much opiods and you feel great, until you die. The tylenol is designed to provide an edge to taking too much so that the curve correlatibg dose to pleasure doesn't always angle upwards. Being very sick, and even having liver problems is generally better than death.

Being very sick, and even having liver problems is generally better than death.

I would submit to you that deliberate contamination of a drug for the sole purpose of inflicting harm in search of a greater good is an outrageous policy.

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#85

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Mar 09, 2016, 7:33 PM UTC

md224 wrote: post #78

twblalock wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should your drug use, or anyone else's, create obligations for other people to support you, treat you, and help you overcome addiction? The libertarian case for legalizing drugs falls apart if society has to take responsibility for providing support systems as a reaction to the actions of individual drug users. Frankly, most people would rather continue to ban drugs than pay for treatment for people who abuse the…

Libertarians like free markets, right? Has anyone tried applying free market principles to drug use? Perhaps if all drugs were legal, people would be able to find less harmful drugs instead of being forced to abuse what's currently legal, and medical costs would go down. I remember reading an anecdote about a guy who stopped drinking by taking occasional painkillers. It scratched the same itch, so he didn't feel the…

[deleted]

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#86

Post by 6stringmerc » Wed, Mar 09, 2016, 7:33 PM UTC

drug3737 wrote: post #82

krschultz wrote: post #15

I've never taken an illegal drug in my life. I've smoked a cigarette about 5 times. I drank in college but lately I've cut that out of my life as well. I had a security clearance with drug testing requirements for a while and now I just don't like the feeling of a hangover from alcohol or the risk of ingesting random plants/chemicals made by shady people. In short: I'm the most vanilla, square, anti-drug person you c…

Singapore, Indonesia and many other Asian countries have more draconian drug laws than the USA. Their drug usage and crime and rates are far lower than the US, Portugal, Netherlands, Canada and other countries with more lenient drug laws.

Caveat to your statement: Reported usage and crime rates. How many of the Asian countries you mentioned have a free and robust press industry that investigates government claims without fear of retribution? I'm of the opinion none, none you mentioned. Therefore I question the validity of your statement at the core, before moving on to other issues which might be a factor of comparison, notably homogenous versus highly heterogenous societies.

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#87

Post by digler999 » Wed, Mar 09, 2016, 7:35 PM UTC

merpnderp wrote: post #79

digler999 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dont know the details of her situation, but I think chronic pain management goes something like this: * patient such as your friend has excruciating pain, requiring the heaviest of the narcotics (say oxycodone/oxymorphone, instead of a "mere" hydrocodone that you'd get for wisdom teeth or something ). * these narcotics are so incredibly dangerous that they must be taken exactly as prescribed for the following reaso…

The person I was referring to was so traumatized by the experience she went to a surgeon two days later and begged for the surgery, even though she was strongly advised to give the pain pills and anti-inflammatories time to work. The surgeon scheduled her 12 hours later and she's been better than new for several years now....Luckily. People have agency. And should be allowed to make their choices. Especially in cases…

> People have agency. And should be allowed to make their choices.

That also includes physicians. Their asses are on the line for every patient they treat. If one of their patients OD's, a full death investigation will be done, possibly including DEA, possibly including the medical board.

If any perceived misconduct is found on behalf of the doctor, s/he could be sued, censured, fired, or perhaps even jailed. When you study for 12-15 years to get a single job, the emotional pain from losing it all isn't far from the physical pain of what your friend went through. Not to mention that doctors have empathy, and would also feel guilt and remorse if their actions killed a patient.

Even though it was a painful, humiliating ordeal for your friend, that's better than cavalierly throwing opiates at her which could have possibly killed her.

> People have agency. And should be allowed to make their choices.

I am not trying to sound like an asshole here, but with pain pill addiction, you don't have agency. that's precisely what addiction is ! You lose agency, willpower, and even develop narcissistic defenses (in some cases) to provide a psychological pathway to defend the addiction. You become a slave. This is exactly why they are regulated!

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#88

Post by twblalock » Wed, Mar 09, 2016, 7:35 PM UTC

pessimizer wrote: post #81

twblalock wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should your drug use, or anyone else's, create obligations for other people to support you, treat you, and help you overcome addiction? The libertarian case for legalizing drugs falls apart if society has to take responsibility for providing support systems as a reaction to the actions of individual drug users. Frankly, most people would rather continue to ban drugs than pay for treatment for people who abuse the…

> Why should your drug use, or anyone else's, create obligations Where did you detect this suggestion? > The libertarian case for legalizing drugs falls apart if society has to take responsibility for providing support systems as a reaction to the actions of individual drug users. That's also where the libertarian case falls apart for legalizing cheeseburgers, and motorcycles.

> Where did you detect this suggestion?

From evincarofautumn's post:

> However, while proceeding with legalisation, we must also establish better social support systems so that people can safely enjoy drugs in moderation.

Those social support systems will cost money. They will have to be funded by taxpayers. Unless they are cheaper than the current system of enforcement and incarceration, people will not support them. Furthermore, it is more politically palatable to punish drug users than to help them. People will be morally opposed to these support systems, and will use them as a reason to oppose drug legalization.

> That's also where the libertarian case falls apart for legalizing cheeseburgers, and motorcycles.

Drug legalization is a political debate. This is about practicality, not pure logical argumentation.

There is no political argument for legalizing cheeseburgers and motorcycles, because they are already legal. Nobody is attempting to change the status quo.

If we want to legalize illegal drugs, we will have to convince people to change the status quo. Changing the status quo, which is the default position, requires evidence that the suggested alternative is superior.

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#89

Post by oxide » Wed, Mar 09, 2016, 7:36 PM UTC

justsaysmthng wrote: post #76

twblalock wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should your drug use, or anyone else's, create obligations for other people to support you, treat you, and help you overcome addiction? The libertarian case for legalizing drugs falls apart if society has to take responsibility for providing support systems as a reaction to the actions of individual drug users. Frankly, most people would rather continue to ban drugs than pay for treatment for people who abuse the…

Because your addiction is also your wife's problem, your parent's problem, your company's problem. Addiction affects more than just the addict. And addicts are in need of help - while it is easy to think that "they like being high, it's their choice", in fact the addicts hate their habit more than anything, yet they can't stop using without external help. Would you help a person with a broken leg ? Why ? Well, that's…

illegal drugs encourage abuse and addiction, not the other way around.

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#90

Post by thaumasiotes » Wed, Mar 09, 2016, 7:36 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #72

thaumasiotes wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't want painkillers, I want you to figure out why my body is hurting when it's not supposed to. It's surprisingly frustrating to talk doctors into looking for the cause instead of treating the symptom. To be fair, this is related to the symptom you're asking them about. Pain often occurs with no apparent cause. As an extreme example, it is normal for amputees to experience the sensation of a "phantom hand" whe…

Pain sometimes occurs with no known cause. I don't know if I'd go so far as to say "often."

This is prominent in the experience of doctors, which is what's relevant to how they behave. People who aren't seeing a doctor because they have nothing wrong with them and aren't in pain rarely complain about how the doctor treats them, and have virtually no effect on doctors' worldview.