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Why the poor pay more for toilet paper and just about everything else

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31–40 of 164 posts

Re: Why the poor pay more for toilet paper and just about everything else

#31
I've never been able to articulate my own feeling about wealth and poverty. I've been objectively poor at some points in my life. I became vegetarian in my early 20s when I was travelling because I couldn't afford meat. Even then there were some weeks where I didn't eat for a few days because I had spent all my money for the week. It sounds bad, but being hungry taught me how to prioritise and I don't regret it.

In other times of my life, I have quit my job and spent half a year writing free software, or training karate -- without any income. I also spent 5 years living in a run down shack spending less than $10K a year, when I was teaching English in Japan.

By many measures, I was living in poverty because I had almost no income, or I was spending almost no money. But at no time in my life have I ever thought of myself as poor. I have always had money in the bank and I have never really been in debt. When I went hungry it was because I stupidly spent my food budget on beer (or something similar). I didn't have money for food, but I did have money.

Money is an option to buy things and for me the feeling of being rich is the feeling of always having that option. You can be happy with less things, I think. Nobody actually needs a yacht to be happy, or a big house, or a collection of vintage wine. But I think it is really hard to be happy when you have no options. It is even harder to be happy when you spend your options in the future and have to suffer with crushing debt -- possibly enslaved forever.

I could choose to be hungry. I could choose to give up my job and do something that paid no money. I could choose to move half way around the world and live in a shack teaching English. That's incredible wealth for me. That kind of wealth is available to many people, but I think that most people can't see it, unfortunately.

Re: Why the poor pay more for toilet paper and just about everything else

#32
Oh fuck this shit, I was poor and I saved by buying rice in bulk and toilet paper in bulk, and everything as cheap as possible.

Seriously, you have to be really fucked up to not be able to put away $25 for rice.

If you're poor and not taking advantage of every savings you can I really don't know how one expects to become not poor. If you're so poor as to not be able to afford a large pack of toilet paper, sacrifice one of your dish rags, I assure you they can be washed for long enough for you to save the extra cash to afford a large pack of toilet paper.

Want to know what my 'rich' neighbors who have a BMW in their drive way do on weekends? Collect cans from their neighbors trash. I can only assume at one point that they were exceedingly poor.

Also, almost everyone I know who was/is poor also smokes. Poor people are mostly poor because they make really bad financial decisions, yes its fucking hard and it seriously takes its toll on you but eventually you get so tired of it you stop making the decisions that keep you poor.

I have never eaten so well, or been so healthy as when I was poor. I walked everywhere, never ate out, spent time with friends, meat was like dessert, and you'd buy the cheapest cuts and marinate and cook them until they were delicious and dropping off the bone.

The only thing I really had a problem with was saving $200 for a decent pair of shoes that would last. Instead I just bought cheap shoes from the thrift store, the nice thing about being poor is you generally don't have anything else to do, so you check veevies every other day. Again if I wanted to solve this problem I know full well I could have stopped smoking and in two months I'd have cash for shoes.

Re: Why the poor pay more for toilet paper and just about everything else

#33

Terry Pratchett said it very well: “The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten d…

Sorry, the quote irritates me to no end (doubly so how people trip over each other to copypaste it).

In practice, most opportunities are not a pure savings like this where you will end up ahead in every way if only you could borrow the money; usually, you'll end up with more painful feet but more money to spend, as the cheaper shoes aren't completely useless and in need of replacement.

If the quote were as true as claimed, then someone could make a program where helpers pair up with a poor person, loan them 50 dollars, and then let the savings spiral up virtuously -- that loan enabled $100 of savings, which can be reinvested in more savings, when frees up more savings, etc.

But obviously no one's figured out how to make that happen, and the poor can often already get loans of such size and not trigger the upward spiral. So something's missing.

With that said, being poor does tend to be a double whammy where e.g. you live in a places that makes bulk purchases harder ... but it looks nothing like the dynamic in the Vimes copypasta.

Re: Why the poor pay more for toilet paper and just about everything else

#34
post #27
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much (most? all?) poverty is caused by human behavior, not adverse circumstance. Just because we know it's caused by human behavior doesn't mean we can fix it.

Citation please.

To be fair, I think most people probably agree about this. Where the disagreement occurs is the question of whose behaviour is chiefly responsible: people in poverty, or people very much not in poverty.

Re: Why the poor pay more for toilet paper and just about everything else

#35
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. She's saying that the poor can't save their money, because they don't have the luxury of not having to spend it to stay fed, clothed, and housed.

No, she did not say that. Otherwise why would the timing of the sale (start of month vs end) make any difference?

[deleted]

Re: Why the poor pay more for toilet paper and just about everything else

#36
post #19

Some destitute-college-student friends were telling me that they lived on a $20/week of rice + beans + canned tomatoes; I suggested that I take them out to Costco and for $100 stuff their pantries with ~3 months of supplies. They patiently explained to idiot me that the reason they ate so poorly was because finding $100 was effectively impossible.

This is why immigrants with strong community support rapidly get out of poverty while the exact same people (ie. same skill, environment, ability) without a strong community don't. With community support you can pool your money, then split the goods and the savings. But you have to be able to implicitly trust your community. Do your friends have other friends in similar situations? Do they trust them enough to make p…

I did a startup in SF a few years ago, totally fucking broke, and never ate healthier in my life thanks to cheap produce from the mission groceries that catered to latinos.

Maybe not everyone can buy bulk but you can buy expired goods, grade b veg, etc.

Re: Why the poor pay more for toilet paper and just about everything else

#39
> spending patterns in developing countries, where cigarettes are sold in singles and shampoo can come in tiny, pricey sachets.

I wouldn't call the sachets pricey. They are single-use and come at an extremely affordable price (mostly just one rupee = 2 cents). Sachets allow the poor to try out products that they could not afford before, or products that they don't use daily.

Sachet sales created a whole new business paradigm.[0] They form the basis of C.K. Prahalad and Allen Hammond's article Serving the World’s Poor, Profitably (HBR September 2002) [1] and C. K. Prahalad's book The Fortune at the Bottom of the Pyramid (Wharton School Publishing, 2004).

[0] http://repository.umac.mo/bitstream/10692/1300/1/7444_0_Sy-C...

[1] https://hbr.org/2002/09/serving-the-worlds-poor-profitably

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fortune_at_the_Bottom_of_t...

Re: Why the poor pay more for toilet paper and just about everything else

#40
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My god, you've solved poverty!

Much (most? all?) poverty is caused by human behavior, not adverse circumstance. Just because we know it's caused by human behavior doesn't mean we can fix it.

If blaming the little African kid with the distended belly helps you sleep at right... well.. you're an asshole.
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