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Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

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Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#301

Post by m4x »

ryandrake wrote: post #291
toomuchtodo wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you're going to go down that route (no pun intended), why not eventually ban everything but officially certified driverless cars from public roads? I agree. That's the way its going to go. People kill 40K/people a year in the US simply driving, and injure/maim hundreds of thousands. There's no way self-driving cars aren't better than that. Want to build your vroom vroom car? Own the entire stack down to the atom…

> People kill 40K/people a year in the US simply driving, and injure/maim hundreds of thousands. Not true. People kill 40K people by crashing their cars into them, not by "simply driving". Make crashing your car into people illegal and punish that. No reason to ban driving.

> Make crashing your car into people illegal and punish that. No reason to ban driving.

Except that people don't crash their cars deliberately, it's unintentional and unavoidable.

There's no point making it illegal to do something that only happens accidentally. People will still do it accidentally.

The only thing you can do is mandate changes to the system which remove the possibility that those mistakes will be made. Driverless cars are one possible change that we could make.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#302

Post by mchahn »

teacup50 wrote: post #299
mchahn wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> phones becoming nothing more than expensive bricks after 2-3 years due to lack of vendor support, coupled platform DRM that prevents re-use? I have repurposed my old Samsung android phones around the house as displays on the walls. They all have the net connection shut down and I use the wifi. They all work great and I see no reason they won't work until the hardware dies. I know this is only one data point. Can so…

> Can someone describe how other models of phones can become bricks? iPhone's have a fully DRM'd trust chain, starting with the bootloader, which is itself on-die and immutable. Installing a new OS image requires online activation with Apple's servers, which return public-key signed installation permission. Unless there's a vulnerability that allows jailbreak, you're not installing non-Apple-approved software on that…

Ah, I understand what you are saying now. Technically, not being able to install new software isn't bricked since you can still run the old. I only run the browser on my old phones so I didn't notice this.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#303

Post by smsm42 »

rblatz wrote: post #261
JupiterMoon wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't have to be a car mod enthusiast to have a desire to use a business you trust and have a good relationship with to repair the property you own.

I would wager that the vast majority of non-enthusiasts do not have a "business they trust and have a good relationship with" that isn't the dealer.

That wager might go pretty bad for you - there is a real lot of independent shops which aren't dealers and they have a lot of business. Moreover, these shops are often significantly cheaper than dealers with same or higher speed and reliability. I've seen dealer trying to change me several times more for the same job than independent shop - dealers seem have their set prices and enough business "by default" not to care about openly overcharging me. And I don't have particularly bad dealer - they are generally fine, except for being prone to quoting outrageous prices for some things.

Of course, there are also crooks out there, so challenge is finding good shop, but once you did, there's absolutely no reason to not do business with them except for things like recalls.

And, of course, for older out-of-warranty cars - which is the vehicle of choice for a real lot of "non-enthusiasts" who just don't have money to buy a shiny new car that loses 20% of value right after driving off the dealer parking lot - there's absolutely no reason to prefer dealers if you have a competent independent shop.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#304

Post by sp332 »

rblatz wrote: post #261
JupiterMoon wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't have to be a car mod enthusiast to have a desire to use a business you trust and have a good relationship with to repair the property you own.

I would wager that the vast majority of non-enthusiasts do not have a "business they trust and have a good relationship with" that isn't the dealer.

My whole family brings ur cars to a single shop. We trust them and the prices are good. My wife and I go there even for oil changes, even after we moved two towns over. They are also the highest-rated shop in the region, so we're not the only ones who trust them.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#305

Post by smsm42 »

maratd wrote: post #286
overgard wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nonsense. You need tactile feedback while driving. You will not be using the center console while driving. You will not even be looking at it. All of the stuff you need while driving is tactile. Right, because nobody has ever adjusted the air conditioning or radio while driving...

> Right, because nobody has ever adjusted the air conditioning or radio while driving... There's a button on the wheel you press for voice commands ...

And a NLP interface there? Or I'd have to remember which magic incantation makes it colder and pronounce it with the right accent (woe is me if I'm not native English speaker)? Voice interfaces suck for these things, if all you need is to do a small movement by you hand, and instead you have to get into a conversation with a dumb robot.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#306

Post by j_s »

tclmeelmo wrote: post #287
maratd wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Oh yeah we had to sacrifice tactile feedback Nonsense. You need tactile feedback while driving. You will not be using the center console while driving. You will not even be looking at it. All of the stuff you need while driving is tactile. > trying to be a fast car but only really good for 0-60 in a straight line LOL. I sense hurt feelings. > no OBD-2 port as another poster pointed out Why would it need an OBD-2 po…

> > trying to be a fast car but only really good for 0-60 in a straight line > LOL. I sense hurt feelings. A Model S weighs something like 4700lbs, depending on battery? I suppose it depends on one's definition of "fast car", but I personally consider more than straight line performance, and lighter cars have a distinct advantage. I agree with Lotus's Colin Chapman: "performance through low weight". > > no OBD-2 port…

Porsche's 911 and Boxster have lower Personal Injury Claim frequencies

My first thought at this statistic was to wonder if these drivers are less likely to survive to file...

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#307

Post by IkmoIkmo »

nkurz wrote: post #222
qume wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They come from my keyboard, just above the QWERTYUIOP keys. They are referencing currency.

What 'jjawssd' was actually asking was an explanation of the math you used to come up with those particular numbers. He's doubting that you could pay for the gas using the interest on $30K. While you do have a point that one should pay attention to the 'cost of money', it also seems possible that you were neglecting to account for the withdrawals to purchase gas along the way. 10,000 gallons of gas in 20 years equate…

3.25% is definitely pretty feasible. Interest rates on bank accs right now aren't a great reflection of supply and demand. But if you look at average returns on the market, say by looking at a decent first proxy for the market like the S&P 500, well that's one which has a 7% inflation-adjusted (i.e. real return) return in its history. In recent years it's been a bit higher as the market is rebounding. In general I'd assume its on the high end (century of cheap oil and all), but 4% is still a realistic long-term return figure, and so 3.25% is therefore quite doable with a moderate level of risk in a diversified portfolio. (oh and the above is not just inflation-adjusted, but also excluding dividend payouts which aren't insignificant).

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#308

Post by Grishnakh »

rblatz wrote: post #281
Grishnakh wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you have no idea what you're talking about. There's an independent repair shop just down the street from me that has as much business as they can handle (they smartly located themselves right outside a major employer's campus, so it's a convenient location for all the people who work there). Everyone knows dealerships are expensive. With the average age of new cars being over 11 years now (according to the ar…

And how many of those people would take their car there after they switch jobs? I'm betting very few. Also things like tires and oil changes are different than major repairs.

This is a government installation. People don't switch jobs here very much.

Tires and oil changes are the two biggest service jobs on cars these days, since everything else is so reliable. But on a 10-year-old car, it's entirely possible to do more substantial repairs thanks to the OBD-II service tools that are available. You can get one of these scanners for $100 now (or less for a crappier one), look up any codes thrown by the ECU, which will tell you exactly which sensor has gone bad. As long as the manufacturer isn't intentionally making it so you need a dealership tool to do stuff, these cars can be quite a bit easier to work on that older ones since they tell you what's wrong.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#309

Post by smsm42 »

maratd wrote: post #296
tclmeelmo wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > trying to be a fast car but only really good for 0-60 in a straight line > LOL. I sense hurt feelings. A Model S weighs something like 4700lbs, depending on battery? I suppose it depends on one's definition of "fast car", but I personally consider more than straight line performance, and lighter cars have a distinct advantage. I agree with Lotus's Colin Chapman: "performance through low weight". > > no OBD-2 port…

> A Model S weighs something like 4700lbs, depending on battery? I suppose it depends on one's definition of "fast car" What? Fast means fast. The Model S goes fast. It has better performance than cars it competes with, like BMW 5/7 series, etc. Is it the fastest car? No. And why would it need to be? It's a luxury sedan, not a race car. > Because OBD-2 is a standard with an entire ecosystem built around it. It's an a…

> Every car should have an open API that is easily accessible using any computer, rather than specialized equipment.

This is the excellent statement but coupled with the threat of being kicked off the warranty (which means no repairs whatsoever since no independent shops) and being assaulted by lawyers with charges of industrial espionage if you veer a little to the left or to the right does not exactly make it a model citizen. Hacking culture is all about doing things manufacturer did not think of. Yes, sometimes that can lead to screw-ups, including ones worthy of voiding the warranty, but so far it seems like Tesla is in full "besieged castle" mode, and even docs you mention are unofficial - which means a) they could change anytime and b) you could be charged with espionage for using it anyway.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#310

Post by ryandrake »

amelius wrote: post #178
ryandrake wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A couple of points: 1. If I wanted DaaS (Driving As A Service) I'd hire a taxi or Uber. I own my car(s) because I don't want to be dependent upon some service provider if I need to get somewhere. 2. When I buy something, I am an _owner_ not a user. 3. Unnecessary dependence on phoning home to the mothership is a huge mis-alignment between the interests of customers and manufacturers. This is why the "Internet of Thin…

All the points you named can be solved by contracts and litigation (perhaps, yes we might need stronger consumer protection). What can't be solved (from what we've seen so far) is manufacturers polluting the environment to no end except by making their products into services. > 2. When I buy something, I am an _owner_ not a user. Yes, please get over it. If you don't own a car, your car will not take up useless space…

They can also be partially solved by refusing to do business with companies that sell products with customer-hostile terms. The only problem would be the day every car manufacturer on Earth decides to behave in this way. Fortunately, while there are a significant number of people like me around, there will always be a market for "things you can buy use without asking permission from the manufacturer".

I find the car I own to very usefully occupy spacetime. If I didn't I wouldn't have bought it. And I am glad that I don't have to phone home to Toyota in order to start it each morning or to repair it. Quite frankly, I don't care what a city would look like without parking spots.

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