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Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

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Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#291

Post by ryandrake »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #188
userbinator wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're going to go down that route (no pun intended), why not eventually ban everything but officially certified driverless cars from public roads? I suppose it gets into a bit of a philosophical question at some point --- some people just want to get from A to B as quickly as possible (with whatever currently technology allows), while others actually enjoy the driving experience and having control over their vehi…

> If you're going to go down that route (no pun intended), why not eventually ban everything but officially certified driverless cars from public roads? I agree. That's the way its going to go. People kill 40K/people a year in the US simply driving, and injure/maim hundreds of thousands. There's no way self-driving cars aren't better than that. Want to build your vroom vroom car? Own the entire stack down to the atom…

> People kill 40K/people a year in the US simply driving, and injure/maim hundreds of thousands.

Not true. People kill 40K people by crashing their cars into them, not by "simply driving". Make crashing your car into people illegal and punish that. No reason to ban driving.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#292

Post by kerberosg »

userbinator wrote: post #80
qume wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, and one more thing. Go walk around the yard of a tow company. Be prepared to feel sick. You'll come away with the conclusion that the standard crash tests, which are well designed for common accidents, are still just a small minority of serious accidents. And the most horrifying thing that I came away with is the number of wrecks where there is 'car' where the passengers should be. Even in trucks and SUVs. The st…

Volvos definitely have a well-deserved reputation; for many years, their slogan was "Drive Safely", and they took it seriously. Here's another video where the Volvo's passenger compartment doesn't even change shape while the other car's is completely crushed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vt0oQsRvtWI Although a downside is that, as the joke goes, "a Volvo doesn't need a crumple zone; it uses the other car." Not so…

That is only true if the other car is of the same era.

Verus newer cars the crumple roles are very much reserved

https://youtu.be/qBDyeWofcLY?t=105

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#293

Post by ryandrake »

usaphp wrote: post #191
ryandrake wrote: post #45

One of the things that makes a car valuable is having a healthy aftermarket. It looks like, from this article anyway, Tesla is doing anything they can to make sure there is no aftermarket for their vehicles. To me, a car that you can't service yourself is worthless. A car that needs the manufacturer's permission to activate is not your car--it's owned by the manufacturer. And, when the manufacturer places a threateni…

But think about it from another perspective: someone purchases Tesla car, decided to service it himself without sufficient knowledge, then later he resells his car to another individual, the person who buys his car enables the autopilot mode on a car and because of the poor service quality/mistake the original owner did to a car the autopilot goes crazy and steers your car into a brick wall, everyone will blame Tesla…

This is why you do a pre-purchase inspection and demand a record of services performed on any car you're interested in buying. Most private party used car sales are AS IS. The minute the new owner drives away it's his problem. You should know the condition of your car, and if you're driving one that's unsafe, that's on you.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#294

Post by ssmoot »

qume wrote: post #209
ssmoot wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally buy the environmental impact argument on keeping that Mercedes vs buying the Tesla. That isn't the only concern though. In a high speed collision against a modern 5-Star vehicle the people in the Mercedes are pretty much toast. I think it's possible you could upgrade the safety of an older vehicle in many ways, but realistically most owners never would beyond tires and modest braking improvements. And you'l…

If I could install aftermarket side airbags I would. It's the main advance missing from the older cars. I don't agree with your statement about the high speed collision though. If it's front on, the strength of the passenger compartment and the weight of your vehicle vs the other car are the most important thing, in which case the Mercedes is likely to come out even or better.

It weighs less than comparable modern cars (my S80 weighed 4400lbs IIRC, my truck weighs 7,200 and my wife's van is about 5,500) at 3,900lbs.

Check out the ~30mph crash test footage: http://youtu.be/8ye-EIymm2k

There's others on YouTube. It doesn't look pretty. A low belt-line doesn't help either (or so I've read, I'm not an automotive engineer).

I get the old car love. A P1800 or Volvo Amazon would be so cool. But you have to accept that even vehicles that were at the top of their game a decade ago are going to get the bad end of the stick in a wreck with a new vehicle. There's a 5th Gear video of a last-gen vs new Espace out there as well. Both 5-star rated at release. The new one absolutely demolished the old one. And we're talking about a much smaller time gap in releases here.

The W124 has only gotten more attractive with age. It's reliable and easy to service. It's better environmentally than running out and buying a Tesla. That's all admirable. and adults are totally capable of those outweigh safety for themselves.

But motor vehicle accidents are the leading cause of death among children and teens if you exclude suicide and cancer. If you could do something that would have a potentially large impact on that stat, as a parent, it's kind of hard to ignore.

(Which wow, that seems like a pretty stark class issue I've never considered before.)

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#295

Post by carlivar »

qume wrote: post #51
carlivar wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your window regulator will fail again within a year or two. (Learned this from experience installing Chinese-made replacement parts in my 90's VW)

I'm sure it will. $23 for a few years is Ok though... it only takes 30 mins to swap it out.

30 minutes, that's impressive. Personally, I can't stand dealing with interior panels. I feel like every time I take apart a door panel I'm rolling the dice if I'm going to break any of the plastic pieces. I prefer to do work in these areas as infrequently as possible.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#296

Post by maratd »

tclmeelmo wrote: post #287
maratd wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Oh yeah we had to sacrifice tactile feedback Nonsense. You need tactile feedback while driving. You will not be using the center console while driving. You will not even be looking at it. All of the stuff you need while driving is tactile. > trying to be a fast car but only really good for 0-60 in a straight line LOL. I sense hurt feelings. > no OBD-2 port as another poster pointed out Why would it need an OBD-2 po…

> > trying to be a fast car but only really good for 0-60 in a straight line > LOL. I sense hurt feelings. A Model S weighs something like 4700lbs, depending on battery? I suppose it depends on one's definition of "fast car", but I personally consider more than straight line performance, and lighter cars have a distinct advantage. I agree with Lotus's Colin Chapman: "performance through low weight". > > no OBD-2 port…

> A Model S weighs something like 4700lbs, depending on battery? I suppose it depends on one's definition of "fast car"

What? Fast means fast. The Model S goes fast. It has better performance than cars it competes with, like BMW 5/7 series, etc.

Is it the fastest car? No. And why would it need to be? It's a luxury sedan, not a race car.

> Because OBD-2 is a standard with an entire ecosystem built around it.

It's an absolutely horrible standard and that entire ecosystem should die. Every car should have an open API that is easily accessible using any computer, rather than specialized equipment.

> IIHS statistics for injury and medical payments don't however support your statement that it is the "safest vehicle on the road".

Has anyone actually ever died in a Tesla? I believe one person did.

http://electrek.co/2015/12/22/man-dies-tesla-model-s-crash-d...

That was a couple of months ago. He was hit by a dump truck.

> luxury cars tend to have problems with the electrical system and associated accessories, especially after the lease period is up, and Tesla is no different.

I'll give you that one.

> but are you saying that the subsystem vendors are American too, to some degree larger than other manufacturers?

Yes. Because Elon Musk is pulling a Henry Ford. They're more vertically integrated than any other car company. I'm not sure that's a good thing ... but it does support my point.

> It's not free, it's incorporated into the cost of the purchase.

Well, yeah. Someone has to pay for it to get built and to maintain it. It's free in the sense that I don't have to explicitly pay for it. It's just included and I can use it as much as I want.

The Model S and Model X are excellent cars. Not perfect, but excellent. There's a reason they're eating up the entire luxury market.

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2016/02/06/can-you-gue...

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#297

Post by carlivar »

x0x0 wrote: post #167
carlivar wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now imagine Apple got rid of independent repair shops (they are already heading in this direction pretty much). There would be outrage, and there's already unease with Apple's direction in these areas. Why does Tesla get a pass?

My phone and laptop have a much lower price and expected service life than a $100k vehicle.

What is the price and service life at which it becomes okay?

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#298

Post by tamana »

bri3d wrote: post #4

The "paywalled workshop manual" requirements are common to every manufacturer. The only reason service manuals are available for free online for other modern cars is that they're ripped from the manufacturer's pay portal, not that the manufacturer is supplying them out of the goodness of their hearts. And the service prices are pretty much in line with other luxury cars at the price point. Not that that really defend…

If the serivcis provided by the manufacturer, they ought to roll it into the purchase, $X + $Y/yr maintenance subscription

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#299

Post by teacup50 »

mchahn wrote: post #152
teacup50 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you're proposing isn't a good thing. It's an ugly, environmentally unfriendly, anti-consumer model. How many people are debt-financing their $800+ iPhone? How much value is that extracting from people, and what are the opportunity costs for them? What's the environmental impact of phones becoming nothing more than expensive bricks after 2-3 years due to lack of vendor support, coupled platform DRM that prevents…

> phones becoming nothing more than expensive bricks after 2-3 years due to lack of vendor support, coupled platform DRM that prevents re-use? I have repurposed my old Samsung android phones around the house as displays on the walls. They all have the net connection shut down and I use the wifi. They all work great and I see no reason they won't work until the hardware dies. I know this is only one data point. Can so…

> Can someone describe how other models of phones can become bricks?

iPhone's have a fully DRM'd trust chain, starting with the bootloader, which is itself on-die and immutable.

Installing a new OS image requires online activation with Apple's servers, which return public-key signed installation permission.

Unless there's a vulnerability that allows jailbreak, you're not installing non-Apple-approved software on that device.

That's the future of the fully centralized/cloud-based 'software iteration business model ... making inroads into the hardware market'

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