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Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

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Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#141

Post by Retric »

MagnumOpus wrote: post #38
Retric wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

@20.8 mpg city when new that's 10,000 gallons of fuel for 200k miles or ~30,000$ while gas is cheap. A Tesla model 3 (To Be Unveiled March 31st) is 35,000$, costs far less (~1/10th) for fuel, and is not 22 years old. That's why people care about electric cars.

10k gallons costs you $18,000 or less right now "while gas is cheap" - for a TCO of $20,000 in 20 years (plus cheap-ish repairs) - and you are driving a Merc. The model 3 (once you can actually get hold of it) will cost you $35,000 up front, plus about $7,000 in electricity for 200k miles at prices of 13-15c/kWh, plus about two battery replacements - battery lifetime is 8 years or 125k miles - at $10,000ish a pop - f…

I just filled up yesterday and gas was 2.89$ a gallon. Where exactly is it 1.80?

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#142

Post by jdc »

gioele wrote: post #58
ryandrake wrote: post #45

One of the things that makes a car valuable is having a healthy aftermarket. It looks like, from this article anyway, Tesla is doing anything they can to make sure there is no aftermarket for their vehicles. To me, a car that you can't service yourself is worthless. A car that needs the manufacturer's permission to activate is not your car--it's owned by the manufacturer. And, when the manufacturer places a threateni…

> To me, a car that you can't service yourself is worthless. A car that needs the manufacturer's permission to activate is not your car--it's owned by the manufacturer. How many cars sold in 2016 can be activated without the manufacturer's permission? If you break your engine control module, who, if not the original manufacturer, can provide you a new one that works for your car? (Serious question, no sarcasm.)

There are independent ECM repair shops out there which helps keep maintenance costs down and cuts dependence on the OEM.

http://www.autocompdirect.com

http://www.autoecmstore.com

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#144

Post by Pxtl »

qume wrote: post #66
wlesieutre wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that this is true of any car in a car dealer lot. But it only matters as a comparison when a car is potentially at end-of-life, and whether it stays on the road or gets shoved in a junkyard and replaced with a new one is an open question. If somebody decides to replace their 2013 model, it's basically 100% odds of staying on the road, and that car being on the road maybe represents one less new car that could ha…

I would wager that 80% of cars that are crushed (which weren't in an accident) could be repaired (if broken) or 'fixed up' to operate better than the last owner thought possible for less than a days work and perhaps a few hundred dollars. I do appreciate your point, but I think people are far too afraid of older cars and they are scrapped too soon. I was hoping to convince some folk in this tech community that old ca…

My '04 vibe needs new catalytic converters, exhaust, and tires, which are altogether right about the book value of the car.

So I'm going to disagree on "few hundred dollars", at least here in Canada where the road salt eats cars.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#145

Post by legitster »

qume wrote: post #13

This is a good place to share this with geeks who may not be into cars: I drive a 1994 Mercedes (W124 chassis). One of the most reliable cars ever made. Simple to repair yourself. A TON of info available online for anything you could want to fix. Pretty much (probably 100%) of all parts on the car are available super cheap as chinese replacements because the model was around for so long and so many of them are still…

As someone who owns both an E30 BMW and a Ford Escort, there is kind of a "myth" about cost of repair and reliability when it comes to luxury brands. I don't think any BMW or Merc is going to be more reliable or cheaper to repair than a comparable "cheap" car. It's just that people a). take better care of luxury cars and b). people are more likely to keep them running.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#146

Post by BufordTJustice »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #103
the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How many cars sold in 2016 can be activated without the manufacturer's permission? What do you mean with manufacturer's permission? The parts are sold independently of the vehicle as far as I'm aware. You can buy loads of ECUs for modern cars on the internet and there is no consequence of installing it.

Can you get the source code for the ECU? You cannot.

Armin is right; further more, I suspect a lot of technology like MegaSquirt will continue to improve, and we'll have (thank god) aftermarket ECMs to put into these cars to give the user more control over the vehicle.

We can only hope that a similar movement to Linux on PCs builds up steam up in the automotive space, as many of us like being able to understand, adapt, and improve on our vehicles.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#147

Post by yeukhon »

ryandrake wrote: post #45

One of the things that makes a car valuable is having a healthy aftermarket. It looks like, from this article anyway, Tesla is doing anything they can to make sure there is no aftermarket for their vehicles. To me, a car that you can't service yourself is worthless. A car that needs the manufacturer's permission to activate is not your car--it's owned by the manufacturer. And, when the manufacturer places a threateni…

My fear is high-tech components in a car. We may come to a point where we can't replace most of the gears simply because of technology unavailable.

But that being said, a lot of Tesla customers are wealthy and they are probably happy to either get a new one, or send back to the factory/certified repair shop.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#149

Post by nulagrithom »

ryandrake wrote: post #45

One of the things that makes a car valuable is having a healthy aftermarket. It looks like, from this article anyway, Tesla is doing anything they can to make sure there is no aftermarket for their vehicles. To me, a car that you can't service yourself is worthless. A car that needs the manufacturer's permission to activate is not your car--it's owned by the manufacturer. And, when the manufacturer places a threateni…

"Jailbroken", exactly. The mobile industry has taken this lockdown approach as well. It's working for them. I wouldn't be at all surprised if it works for the auto industry too.

I'm not sure this is inherently bad or good. I don't like it personally, but I do see the reasoning. Self-driving cars probably shouldn't be hackable, and the first attempts need to be airtight as possible (what with the media jumping at every chance to spread FUD). But it concerns me that the days of opening the hood to hack away at your pickup truck might someday, largely, go away... That's not good for anyone.

Re: Why I think Tesla is building throwaway cars

#150

Post by danielvf »

Retric wrote: post #141
MagnumOpus wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

10k gallons costs you $18,000 or less right now "while gas is cheap" - for a TCO of $20,000 in 20 years (plus cheap-ish repairs) - and you are driving a Merc. The model 3 (once you can actually get hold of it) will cost you $35,000 up front, plus about $7,000 in electricity for 200k miles at prices of 13-15c/kWh, plus about two battery replacements - battery lifetime is 8 years or 125k miles - at $10,000ish a pop - f…

I just filled up yesterday and gas was 2.89$ a gallon. Where exactly is it 1.80?

Gas is $1.34 per gallon today in my town here in South Carolina.
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