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Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

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Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#531
post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How interesting. So using a statistically significant population sample, there will be no phenotypic differences between carriers of X versus Y chromosomes? If so, science has progressed quite far in the last few years that I've been away.

There won't be much difference beyond reproductive roles and other physical traits, but the brain doesn't seem to be affected all that much, no. Basically, there's no gene for being a programmer just as there's no gene for being a (good/bad) parent. Why would Nature bother to pre-compute/compile all possible states/outcomes? Better to compute/compile the essentials for a living species then let the rest be handled by…

> There won't be much difference beyond reproductive roles and other physical traits, but the brain doesn't seem to be affected all that much, no.

Ah so evolution stops at the neck! Genius!

The more you know...

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#532
post #524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just tech sites, though, which is what I'm getting at. Major politicians and newspapers constantly go on at great lengths about alleged gender problems in tech. Do they talk nearly as much about, say, the imbalance towards women in education? I'm going to assert that they do not.

I don't see what you're getting at. Like, is there a conspiracy against the tech industry? I really doubt it. I think tech jobs are very desirable and the gender imbalance very pronounced so it's a natural focal point.

> Like, is there a conspiracy against the tech industry? I really doubt it.

Who said there's a conspiracy? There's no more a conspiracy against the tech industry than, say, people who vote Democratic are a conspiracy against the Republican Party. It's just a large number of people with similar opinions and self-interest. Unfortunately, in this case the emergent result of that large number of people acting in their own opinion and interest is a lot of unjust attacks on innocent people, dismantling of valuable concepts such as meritocracy, and a distorted view of the industry in the popular imagination.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#533
post #522
post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

New HN rules: Citing science as a defense against the current cultural paradigm is inciting a flamewar. How the mighty have fallen. I actively steer young entrepreneurs away from YC and HN, as it has become incredibly in tune with the echo chamber of the radical political ideologies of our time. I don't understand how this behavior encourages clear and logical thinking or produces successful entrepreneurs. I would ap…

> as it has become incredibly in tune with the echo chamber of the radical political ideologies of our time. And yet, in this very thread, the people voicing those "radical"[1] ideologies are downvoted, and the people trotting out MRA talking points are not. [1] How the fuck is "men and women should have equal pay for equal work" radical?

A perfect illustration of my point.

Sexual dimorphism is real. Your impotent rage and ridiculous ideologies will never change that fact. I will be greatly amused by your kind's zealous need to tilt at windmills.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#534
post #509
post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This turn into generic gender-war predictably degenerated into yet another tedious spat. Perhaps elsewhere on the Internet there is a spot where people haven't had enough of such discussions yet, but HN isn't one. Note the guidelines: "Please avoid introducing classic flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say about them." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html We detached this subthread…

New HN rules: Citing science as a defense against the current cultural paradigm is inciting a flamewar. How the mighty have fallen. I actively steer young entrepreneurs away from YC and HN, as it has become incredibly in tune with the echo chamber of the radical political ideologies of our time. I don't understand how this behavior encourages clear and logical thinking or produces successful entrepreneurs. I would ap…

> I would appreciate a response on this topic

I'm always willing to help clarify how HN works, but the first four sentences of your comment are such wild projections that it's hard for me to read your request as serious. And then you posted https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11226294, which flagrantly violates everything HN stands for.

It takes a lot of energy to post these responses, and it's hard to justify that investment when you're not making any effort to be civil, and when instead of open-mindedness you display only a desire to score ideological points.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#535
post #503
post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 3) Gender-biased job preference due to genetically pre-disposed traits that are influenced by environment/culture: Possibly OK as long as culture has gender-equal expectations and opportunities. Isn't expecting "gender-equal expectations and opportunities" strange if you agree with "Gender-biased job preference due to genetically pre-disposed traits"? Why would culture expect a tall thin person and a short muscular…

I wonder what percentage of all jobs have characteristics that a require a person to have a certain build or physique to be successful in that role?

Who knows... Maybe it's the same white/blue collar worker separation?

On the other hand - I also find it hard to believe that the only difference between the sexes is the body build. Based on my engineers' mindset it would quite surprise me if two bodies which look and work different were wired totally alike. Though this line of thought is quite out of fashion.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#536
post #534
post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

New HN rules: Citing science as a defense against the current cultural paradigm is inciting a flamewar. How the mighty have fallen. I actively steer young entrepreneurs away from YC and HN, as it has become incredibly in tune with the echo chamber of the radical political ideologies of our time. I don't understand how this behavior encourages clear and logical thinking or produces successful entrepreneurs. I would ap…

> I would appreciate a response on this topic I'm always willing to help clarify how HN works, but the first four sentences of your comment are such wild projections that it's hard for me to read your request as serious. And then you posted https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11226294 , which flagrantly violates everything HN stands for. It takes a lot of energy to post these responses, and it's hard to justify that…

I have a policy to return hostility in kind. The commenter DanBC was being vulgar without making any points, so I decided to respond in a manner befitting his tone.

But since you seem to be a levelheaded individual, I would like to seriously discuss the suppression of critical thought on Hacker News, and why moderators such as yourself enforce it ruthlessly.

Let's start with the parent comment:

>When those gender roles are all but constant across countless independently developed cultures existent over tens of thousands of years, with distribution of visible physical traits to match them, it's pretty safe to assume that they're baked into our DNA and not some random whim of western culture. Imagine how long a tribe with male caretakers and female warriors (who it cannot be argued are not on average significantly smaller and weaker than men) would survive against a tribe of male warriors and female caretakers. There are species with much less divergence in biology between males and females. We would not have evolved to have such divergence if it were not useful for our fitness to have distinct fighter/protector and caretaker roles. Indeed as K-strategists that take a very long time to mature, having dedicated caretakers was an extremely useful evolution.

There is absolutely nothing controversial about this statement to a trained biologist. In fact, you could not get through an undergraduate degree in biology if you did not understand sexual dimorphism, r/K selection theory, and the sexual specialization that results. As such, there is nothing political about the statement. It is merely a statement of the current scientific understanding of the evolutionary history of homo sapiens.

Now let's look at your response:

>This turn into generic gender-war predictably degenerated into yet another tedious spat. Perhaps elsewhere on the Internet there is a spot where people haven't had enough of these yet, but HN isn't one. Note the guidelines: "Please avoid introducing classic flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say about them."

So, the statement of scientific consensus stated by the original comment is labelled by a moderator as "gender-war" which "predictably degenerated into yet another tedious spat." And you summarise with saying HN has had enough, and the debate is to be ended.

So I just want to be clear, which branches of evolutionary biology, and science in general, are off limits to discuss on HN? And how does censoring known science help critical thought and discussions regarding the current entrepreneurial markets in tech?

Thank you for your time.

EDIT: to address your final statement:

>It takes a lot of energy to post these responses, and it's hard to justify the investment when you're not making any effort to be civil, and when instead of open-mindedness you display only a desire to score ideological points.

It is a bold assertion that stating known science is "a desire to score ideological points." This line of thinking demonstrates more about the reader, and less about the material. Evolutionary biology is not an ideology, it is a science. Stating it does not make one an ideologue, but an empiricist.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#537
post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I picked chromosomes and genes mostly because they are at least involved in the creation of the human brain, which was a bit hastily written. I agree that it makes for a poor prediction to determine who is going to have a tendency for mood swings. Gender, to the degree that gender is not about culture, is quite far down the list of predictors, and even further down on the list would be hormones.

The literature I've read says hormones are "involved in the creation of the brain". "Steroid hormones are a dominant and pervasive source of sex differences by mediating developmental processes that are enduring and establish adult physiological and behavioural responses relevant to the reproductive constraints of each sex." From Multifaceted origins of sex differences in the brain , 1 February 2016, an open access a…

The same study says:

"Animal models have also allowed us to move beyond hormones and to an appreciation of the important role of sex chromosomes. Study of these mice has revealed important roles for chromosome complement on body weight and feeding, aggression and habit formation, to name a few."

And section 8: "Some argue it is pure folly to study neuroanatomical sex differences with the hope of understanding sex differences in behaviour as the connection between anatomy and behaviour is often weak or even non-existent [50]. Indeed, the most celebrated sex difference in the brain, the SDN, has not been clearly tied to any specific behavioural or physiological endpoint, although see above discussion regarding sexual orientation. While it is true that anatomical or physiological differences in the brain often do not map onto clear differences in behaviour, does this mean they are not important or even, not real? Many studies of sex differences in brain anatomy or neural functioning are perfectly sound, meaning they are fully powered and technically executed using well vetted and accepted approaches, yet a strong correlation between variance in anatomy and variance in behaviour is about the best one can hope for in establishing a causal relationship."

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#538

No gap in pay for the same position . But the position gap is still alive and well. Also called the glass ceiling. So, the average women in tech are paid less than men. The title is quite misleading.

> No gap in pay for the same position. That's the point here and it's worth reiterating when feminists consistently say they're paid 7X cents on the dollar.

And the glass ceiling means, the average woman is pad 7X cents on the dollar because they're denied promotion and advancement. So that's the point too - they're right.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#539
post #536
post #534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would appreciate a response on this topic I'm always willing to help clarify how HN works, but the first four sentences of your comment are such wild projections that it's hard for me to read your request as serious. And then you posted https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11226294 , which flagrantly violates everything HN stands for. It takes a lot of energy to post these responses, and it's hard to justify that…

I have a policy to return hostility in kind. The commenter DanBC was being vulgar without making any points, so I decided to respond in a manner befitting his tone. But since you seem to be a levelheaded individual, I would like to seriously discuss the suppression of critical thought on Hacker News, and why moderators such as yourself enforce it ruthlessly. Let's start with the parent comment: >When those gender rol…

> I have a policy to return hostility in kind.

In that case you can't comment here. "But he started it" is an acceptable excuse neither from 5-year-olds nor from HN commenters. It always feels like the other person started it and did worse.

> I would like to seriously discuss the suppression of critical thought on Hacker News, and why moderators such as yourself enforce it ruthlessly

This is obviously just polemic, and boilerplate at that. We might as well "discuss" whether I've stopped beating my wife.

Ideological harangues have no place on this site, so please don't post any more of them.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#540
post #529
post #523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If those data points were on topic ("discrimination"), instead of off topic ("difference"), I wouldn't reject them.

Since you don't accept the EEOC as a valid source of information, you are likely to reject statements like http://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/newsroom/release/4-28-11a.cfm : > Gender-based wage discrimination remains a problem today and a percentage of the wage discrepancy cannot be explained by non-discriminatory factors, said government and private experts .. In http://www.huffingtonpost.com/christina-hoff-sommers/wage-ga...…

"I see no reason to reject ... as one of the factors"

Such agnostic logic is unassailable. You don't know; the powers that be don't know; the courts & lawsuits don't know. You're right not to reject the possibility.

However, you'd be wrong the assert the certainty "... disparity is also caused by discrimination" with such flimsy evidence.

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