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Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

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Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#501

Post by chongli »

lagadu wrote: post #417
chongli wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But how much is it paid? If somebody is making six figures, is it going to cover the whole amount? That seems unlikely. If it's a low percentage of the total amount, then it's forcing a big pay cut that families may not be able to afford.

Details vary by country, but in the three countries I've lived in 100% of your salary. It's paid by social security, even if your salary is in the seven figures, then you also paid a high amount to social security to cover for it. edit: here's a table with more details https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_leave#Europe_.28inc._...

I think the US would have a long way to go before the public would ever accept having 7+ figure salaries paid out of the taxpayer pocket. That's pretty cool that some countries do though I see some of them only offer the 100% to women and not men.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#502

Post by pkinsky »

untog wrote: post #28
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If. That may be happening, if those doing the promoting are biased. (Which means, in some places, it probably is happening that way.) Systematically, though? Industry-wide? Is this really happening?

> Systematically, though? Industry-wide? Is this really happening? Probably? The issue as best I see it is that there isn't any one cause here. So when you look at the roster of Silicon Valley CEOs and see row after row of white, male faces you could say that it's because tech is racist/sexist and prevents women/people of color from ascending to management positions in companies. Then someone might counter and say, n…

> So when you look at the roster of Silicon Valley CEOs and see row after row of white, male faces

I'd question your visual acuity: it's white, asian and indian male faces, not white male faces.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#503

Post by ljf »

skarap wrote: post #456
shkkmo wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how you think these questions ignore cultural evolution. I think the question can be rephrased as asking "What causes of gender-biased job funneling/preference are acceptable in our hyper-PC society?" 1) Gender-biased job preference due to unequal opportunity: Bad 2) Gender-biased job preference due to unequal societal expectations: Bad 3) Gender-biased job preference due to genetically pre-disposed trait…

> 3) Gender-biased job preference due to genetically pre-disposed traits that are influenced by environment/culture: Possibly OK as long as culture has gender-equal expectations and opportunities. Isn't expecting "gender-equal expectations and opportunities" strange if you agree with "Gender-biased job preference due to genetically pre-disposed traits"? Why would culture expect a tall thin person and a short muscular…

I wonder what percentage of all jobs have characteristics that a require a person to have a certain build or physique to be successful in that role?

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#504

Post by FD3SA »

rayiner wrote: post #331
shkkmo wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how you think these questions ignore cultural evolution. I think the question can be rephrased as asking "What causes of gender-biased job funneling/preference are acceptable in our hyper-PC society?" 1) Gender-biased job preference due to unequal opportunity: Bad 2) Gender-biased job preference due to unequal societal expectations: Bad 3) Gender-biased job preference due to genetically pre-disposed trait…

They presuppose that if there is an evolutionary explanation for gender rules it's genetic rather than cultural.

Ah yes, the Y chromosome is indeed a culturally manifested construct. Good point.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#505

Post by tveita »

tomp wrote: post #151
whiddershins wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know ... have you wandered around the world and actually talked to real people about how they view gender? Almost no one will assert they think men and women are exactly the same. So if everyone starts from the presumption that there is some, poorly defined, somewhat-conscious, never agreed upon, but certainly real, difference between men and women ... a bias in treatment would be the default condition, and w…

> a bias in treatment would be the default condition, and would probably require conscious effort and/or policy to overcome. Ironically, people usually assume that the unequal treatment benefits men over women, and completely dismiss the reverse possibility, even though there's no rational reason for this :)

Maybe a priori in a vacuum, but most people are aware of the historical context where women just recently got the right to vote and attend university, and are still considered men's property in some parts of the world.

It's well acknowledged that men are discriminated against in some contexts, but yes, there is no serious debate that the sexism in our society overwhelmingly targets women, and there's a reason that the movement for equality between sexes is called "feminism".

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#506

Post by FD3SA »

norea-armozel wrote: post #499
belorn wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every study on hormones from the last 40 years has shown conclusive evidence that hormone levels within natural occurring levels has very minimal effect on behavior, emotion and life choices. If you want to find differences between gender, look at chromosomes and their effect. The purpose of hormone is to primarily regulate the reproductive system.

Actually, chromosomes are a worse target for predicting behaviors in terms of sex-linked traits since genes during conception can and will be exchanged between the X and Y chromosomes in humans. This is why sometimes the SRY gene is found in women (XX) despite clearly having an operative uterus and ovaries. Nature loves to pick on us humans when it comes to assuming fixed traits.

How interesting. So using a statistically significant population sample, there will be no phenotypic differences between carriers of X versus Y chromosomes?

If so, science has progressed quite far in the last few years that I've been away.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#507

Post by belorn »

leereeves wrote: post #477
belorn wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

natural occurring levels . A person who injects steroids to create hormone levels with order of magnitude above normal levels is not natural occurring. If you take a number of people with different aggressiveness (or as most studies do, look at chimps with picking orders), and you find no correlation with hormone. Add 5% more hormone, and you don't get 5% behavior. Pump in larger amount of hormone, and you see exagge…

This could be a long debate. To simplify, do you know of any scientific or medical sources that say "hormones (within natural occurring levels) have very minimal effect on emotion" as you claimed earlier?

lets me quote a few different text. The key word that I used was regulative effect.

"Normal estrogen levels vary widely. Large differences are typical in a woman on different days, or between two women on the same day of their cycles. The actual measured level of estrogen doesn't predict emotional disturbances.". (webmd article. not a authoritative but useful as a general summery)

"However, estrogen is not simply a natural "physiological protectant". Some have reported that estrogen administration does not improve mood and even causes fear and anxiety. Therefore, the impact of estrogen on emotion varies and may depend on the individual's current state and the situation. The authors believe that hormones do not exert an absolute and singular effect on the body." (Estrogen Impacts on Emotion: Psychological, Neuroscience and Endocrine Studies)

As an example estrogen effect, it regulated how easy memories of arousals are formed, which also adrenaline happens to do. Both do this for rather logical reasons, ie, to increase or decrease the chance of a similar event to happen again. This can then have an effect of the perception of fearful faces, although the study on mice from 2006 (Jasnow et al) doesn't really give a definitive number on how big impact that has on female mice total emotional state. It is also reported that this effect the perception of pain and the memory of having pain.

"The testosterone increment was associated with detectable but minor mood changes ... Future research should investigate the implications of these minor mood changes."(Effects of Testosterone on Mood, Aggression, and Sexual Behavior in Young Men: A Double-Blind, Placebo-Controlled, Cross-Over Study)

I will stop here. People like to blame hormones and hormone levels to excuse someones behavior. The data I have seen is quite clear the effect is regulative and thus you don't get an cause-and-effect.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#508

Post by estefan »

facepalm wrote: post #495
estefan wrote: post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My preference as a person would be to spend as much care-free time as possible (care-free as in not having to worry about earning money). FTFY.

What do you mean? According to urban dictionary, ftyf means "fixed that for you"? How does your statement contradict mine?

Because that's what everyone wants, kids or not.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#509

Post by FD3SA »

dang wrote: post #437
clevernickname wrote: post #343

When those gender roles are all but constant across countless independently developed cultures existent over tens of thousands of years, with distribution of visible physical traits to match them, it's pretty safe to assume that they're baked into our DNA and not some random whim of western culture. Imagine how long a tribe with male caretakers and female warriors (who it cannot be argued are not on average significa…

This turn into generic gender-war predictably degenerated into yet another tedious spat. Perhaps elsewhere on the Internet there is a spot where people haven't had enough of such discussions yet, but HN isn't one. Note the guidelines: "Please avoid introducing classic flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say about them." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html We detached this subthread…

New HN rules:

Citing science as a defense against the current cultural paradigm is inciting a flamewar.

How the mighty have fallen.

I actively steer young entrepreneurs away from YC and HN, as it has become incredibly in tune with the echo chamber of the radical political ideologies of our time. I don't understand how this behavior encourages clear and logical thinking or produces successful entrepreneurs.

I would appreciate a response on this topic dang, as I am sincerely amazed by your response to the parent's comment.

EDIT: In case anyone wants to start asking for citations, it is equivalent to asking for citations regarding the heliocentric model of the solar system. R/K selection theory, sexual dimorphism, and sex specialization are such well understood topics as to be assumed common knowledge among any educated biologists. It only speaks to the individual's naivete when they bring up the citation requirement.

Citations are used for new and ground breaking research, not for common scientific knowledge that has been in the mainstream for a hundred years. I am constantly amazed by the sheer ignorance of the HN crowd on this extremely well understood science.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#510

Post by belorn »

norea-armozel wrote: post #499
belorn wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every study on hormones from the last 40 years has shown conclusive evidence that hormone levels within natural occurring levels has very minimal effect on behavior, emotion and life choices. If you want to find differences between gender, look at chromosomes and their effect. The purpose of hormone is to primarily regulate the reproductive system.

Actually, chromosomes are a worse target for predicting behaviors in terms of sex-linked traits since genes during conception can and will be exchanged between the X and Y chromosomes in humans. This is why sometimes the SRY gene is found in women (XX) despite clearly having an operative uterus and ovaries. Nature loves to pick on us humans when it comes to assuming fixed traits.

I picked chromosomes and genes mostly because they are at least involved in the creation of the human brain, which was a bit hastily written. I agree that it makes for a poor prediction to determine who is going to have a tendency for mood swings.

Gender, to the degree that gender is not about culture, is quite far down the list of predictors, and even further down on the list would be hormones.

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