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Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

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Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#441

Post by pgeorgi »

geomark wrote: post #412
wahrsagevogel wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For instance, in Germany the woman's job position must be held open for her until she decides to return to work (possibly years later), not to mention the full salary compensation months before and after giving-birth, when she is no longer working. The company will be reimbursed for the salary by the health insurance upon filling out a form. A company does not pay a single cent more than the cost of hiring another…

Couple of questions: 1. Who pays for the insurance? 2. Why is it called insurance?

It's the public health insurance system.

It's paid for by for every employee, with a ~50%/50% split between employer and employee, with the premium depending on gross income only.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#442

Post by clevernickname »

dang wrote: post #437
clevernickname wrote: post #343

When those gender roles are all but constant across countless independently developed cultures existent over tens of thousands of years, with distribution of visible physical traits to match them, it's pretty safe to assume that they're baked into our DNA and not some random whim of western culture. Imagine how long a tribe with male caretakers and female warriors (who it cannot be argued are not on average significa…

This turn into generic gender-war predictably degenerated into yet another tedious spat. Perhaps elsewhere on the Internet there is a spot where people haven't had enough of such discussions yet, but HN isn't one. Note the guidelines: "Please avoid introducing classic flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say about them." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html We detached this subthread…

I was just wondering why my score suddenly dropped 10~ points, and now I understand. It was cute to refresh the thread a few times and see the downvotes slowly accumulate as you read each post.

A flamewar? Someone was arguing against basic biology in the name of anti-scientific dogma and I defended it.

When you agree with one side of a "gender war" topic, it's ok, a statement of the obvious. When you disagree, it's a "flame war," a "tedious spat."

I look forward to being either passive aggressively chastised, or hellbanned.

EDIT, because I can't post anymore because rate limiting is one of the many shadow moderation techniques of the HN staff:

If you compare the votes for me vs. the votes for the person I'm arguing against, it's clear that someone out there agrees with what I'm saying and doesn't see it as a "tedious spat." (or at least, the votes before your brigade descended upon it, which were quite positive in my favor)[1]. You should reconsider if you are actually serving your community neutrally, or just projecting your own views upon it. As one would expect of someone that moderates an online forum for a living.

[1] Why blame a downvote brigade? Because why else would people suddenly mass downvote all of my posts in a thread that you had just detached and "marked off-topic," that they shouldn't have been able to see?

Why would I care? I don't, I just enjoy laughing at you and your desperate attempts to control the narrative.

PS: I'd like to argue constructively with pron downthread, but I can't, as I'm ratelimited (and probably shadowbanned) for wrongthink.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#443

Post by dang »

mynameisvlad wrote: post #272
CWuestefeld wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many businesses out there. Make your employment decisions based on your values. I don't have children, and won't be having any. You seem to be saying that I have to subsidize your childcare leave.

Yes, because, shockingly, both parents caring for babies helps society as a whole. Maybe you should stop being selfish instead of making it hard for others to have families. There have been studies that have shown fathers are far more involved in their kid's lives by taking paternal leave. It also means that the parents will both be far more productive post-leave as they would have developed more balanced responsibil…

> Maybe you should stop being selfish

Personal attacks are not allowed on HN. Please post civilly and substantively, or not at all.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#444

Post by leereeves »

dnautics wrote: post #432
losteric wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fully agree with everything here, especially getting rid of stereotypes around nurturing roles. My question is, what happens if many women and men aren't funneled towards those roles? What if it's a natural preference given our evolutionary history? I'm not saying that's the case, and my parents had no problems reversing nurturing roles over 20 years ago... but given our hyper-"PC" society, I am curious how far soc…

The nurturing roles theory is kind of sexist. I think a better theory is as follows. In almost all metrics men show higher variance than women (sometimes that is attributed to because men lack a moderating effect of an extra x chromosome). As a result the "male" skillet is more varied and men seek a wider range of jobs. Another possibility is that socially men are expected to be riskier, and so are more broadly seeki…

It's not "sexist" to acknowledge reality.

Men and women (on average) have different hormone levels, and those hormones do effect our emotions and our choices.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#445

Post by tomp »

dnautics wrote: post #432
losteric wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fully agree with everything here, especially getting rid of stereotypes around nurturing roles. My question is, what happens if many women and men aren't funneled towards those roles? What if it's a natural preference given our evolutionary history? I'm not saying that's the case, and my parents had no problems reversing nurturing roles over 20 years ago... but given our hyper-"PC" society, I am curious how far soc…

The nurturing roles theory is kind of sexist. I think a better theory is as follows. In almost all metrics men show higher variance than women (sometimes that is attributed to because men lack a moderating effect of an extra x chromosome). As a result the "male" skillet is more varied and men seek a wider range of jobs. Another possibility is that socially men are expected to be riskier, and so are more broadly seeki…

In addition to what leereves mentions, preferences could be different because of biology also in a different way. Knowing that their child-bearing period is quite limited, women rationally overweight "having children" and underweight "having a great career" in their youth, compared to men, who can work their ass off for 20 years, and still easily have kids afterwards. On other words, it's easier for men to "have it all" than for women (I don't agree with the values expressed by this saying, but I'm guessing many people do).

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#446

Post by rosser »

leereeves wrote: post #444
dnautics wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The nurturing roles theory is kind of sexist. I think a better theory is as follows. In almost all metrics men show higher variance than women (sometimes that is attributed to because men lack a moderating effect of an extra x chromosome). As a result the "male" skillet is more varied and men seek a wider range of jobs. Another possibility is that socially men are expected to be riskier, and so are more broadly seeki…

It's not "sexist" to acknowledge reality. Men and women (on average) have different hormone levels, and those hormones do effect our emotions and our choices.

But to use those factual physical differences as a way to explain (read: justify) archaic, false beliefs about other differences between men and women? Yeah, that's pretty sexist.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#447

Post by 8note »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #413
shkkmo wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Men are larger and stronger than women, women are flooded with hormones during pregnancy that force a bond between them and their children. Strength/size is a physical trait, not a gender role. Hormone release is a physical process, not a gender role. >"A liberal swing in culture is trying to encourage people to abandon their traditional gender roles" If you think that gender roles haven't changed repeatedly underg…

> Strength/size is a physical trait, not a gender role. Hormone release is a physical process, not a gender role. Where do you think gender roles come from? The most common job in the US is truck driver. It's not software developer money but it pays better than you might expect. Truck drivers are overwhelming male and you might not see an obvious reason for that and want to blame "gender roles" or sexism. But truck d…

if you need to lift that much weight, you'll be using a crane, in which case your strength is a moot point.

Assuming strength does matter for loading/unloading, the real culprit is how truckers are paid, not the strength of the driver.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#448

Post by scotty79 »

abraca wrote: post #139
varjag wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's actually in the name. You are a resource for a purchasing department. I can't understand how people come to assume HR is on their side: it's not a union.

Yeah I (wrongly) figured that HR would do scans of salaries based on gender, race, disability etc to make sure there were no statistically significant differences that could lead to ammo in a lawsuit situation.

I'd expect that PR or Legal or Compliance would know more about this if they routinely search things they anticipate having to defend against.

BTW all of what you described is not unique to women. I have at least few friends that don't negotiate, don't seek alternative offers and because of that are disadvantaged when it comes to earnings. Periodic pay rise is just a device to dissuade employees from seeking their market value and appropriate compensation. The main reason for its existence is to profit from what happened to you.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#449

Post by timje1 »

luxpir wrote: post #439
cortesoft wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the father of a 10 week old baby girl, it isn't as simple as just society enabling parents to contribute equally. I am SO into being a dad. I want to do as much caregiving as possible. However, breastfeeding kinda throws a monkey wrench into the "split all the work equally" plan. For newborns, eating is what they do most of the time (when they aren't sleeping). If you breastfeed your child, which all pediatricians…

The funny thing about breastfeeding is that advice varies between countries, despite WHO advice. Which is very short on data, IMO. China, France say bottle up, UK has a strange and emotional culture around bonding with your baby, as if men and adopted parents are unable to do so without mammary glands. I have very little time for the breastfeeding brigade, particularly those who think it induces some kind of superhum…

I think the data's pretty unequivocal about it affecting the IQ of the baby.

This study's *1 got the result down to 7 points increase for 90% of babies when breastfed, whereas the figure I hear thrown around most often is 4 points. That's definitely not insignificant! I don't know about the strength of the data around immune systems.

1 http://www.unicef.org.uk/BabyFriendly/News-and-Research/Rese...

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