Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries • Hacker News Board

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#421

Post by clevernickname » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 6:19 AM UTC

shkkmo wrote: post #419

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Strength/size is a physical trait, not a gender role. Hormone release is a physical process, not a gender role. Where do you think gender roles come from? The most common job in the US is truck driver. It's not software developer money but it pays better than you might expect. Truck drivers are overwhelming male and you might not see an obvious reason for that and want to blame "gender roles" or sexism. But truck d…

...wow... Do you really believe the reason why fewer than 6% of truck drivers are female is because women are not physically strong enough for the job? Do you really believe this has nothing to do with the sexism of the industry and the perception of this industry by society?

Once again, you completely ignore the arguments of the person you are responding to, and your counterarguments scarcely amount to "it's 2016, come on!"

Outside the just world of your delusions, where everyone is kind and good except the evil white males leeching off the world by the right of their "privilege", there are people that would kill you and take your property in a heartbeat. Truck drivers are trusted with transporting and protecting substantial sums of property with every trip they take. I would absolutely trust a big strong man to transport my cargo over any woman, for the same reason that I would not trust a young boy to do so. Thieves (who are mostly strong men themselves) aren't scared of women or boys.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#422

Post by throwaway160303 » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 6:35 AM UTC

shkkmo wrote: post #419

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Strength/size is a physical trait, not a gender role. Hormone release is a physical process, not a gender role. Where do you think gender roles come from? The most common job in the US is truck driver. It's not software developer money but it pays better than you might expect. Truck drivers are overwhelming male and you might not see an obvious reason for that and want to blame "gender roles" or sexism. But truck d…

...wow... Do you really believe the reason why fewer than 6% of truck drivers are female is because women are not physically strong enough for the job? Do you really believe this has nothing to do with the sexism of the industry and the perception of this industry by society?

Chill out. AnthonyMouse makes a perfectly valid and well-expressed point. Pulling a "wow" at someone else's "naive little worldview" is neither convincing nor constructive.

I don't know about a 94%/6% breakdown, but I know that if truck drivers are paid as described, by-the-mile, the workforce must skew heavily male, since pay will be higher for physically stronger individuals. It is not that women are not physically strong enough - it is that stronger people are paid more for doing this job, and therefore the people most incentivized to pick truck driving will be those who are strongest, and the upper echelons of that measure are exclusively male. Not the entire top 3.5 million that it would take to fill every truck driver job in the US, and of course some strong people will choose to do other things, and some less-physically-gifted individuals of both sexes will choose to do it despite not being compensated as well as others with the same job.

So. If 94/6 doesn't seem reasonable to you, what does?

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#423

Post by clevernickname » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 6:42 AM UTC

throwaway160303 wrote: post #422

shkkmo wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...wow... Do you really believe the reason why fewer than 6% of truck drivers are female is because women are not physically strong enough for the job? Do you really believe this has nothing to do with the sexism of the industry and the perception of this industry by society?

Chill out. AnthonyMouse makes a perfectly valid and well-expressed point. Pulling a "wow" at someone else's "naive little worldview" is neither convincing nor constructive. I don't know about a 94%/6% breakdown, but I know that if truck drivers are paid as described, by-the-mile, the workforce must skew heavily male, since pay will be higher for physically stronger individuals. It is not that women are not physically…

>Pulling a "wow" at someone else's "naive little worldview" is neither convincing nor constructive.

When some people have no reasonable argument left to make, their last ditch effort is to shame the person they are arguing with for the opinions they hold.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#424

Post by clevernickname » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 6:44 AM UTC

shkkmo wrote: post #406

clevernickname wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The only thing that I am disagreeing with him on is whether "it is safe to assume that gender roles are baked into our DNA". Ah, now I understand. You're practicing the common internet commenter behavior of picking out a single strongly worded statement and ignoring everything else the person said. Uncharitably reading my comments as "hurr durr women belong in the kitchen" instead of putting some faith in the author…

I am sorry if I mis-interpreted your comment, but words matter a lot in this discussion and yours were poorly chosen.

Our words are so dull and bereft of meaning today because people like you scare everyone else away from using them.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#425

Post by tsycho » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 6:53 AM UTC

cortesoft wrote: post #232

shostack wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Beat me to it. The episode is basically an interview with Claudia Goldin who is about as qualified a person as you could hope for to speak on this matter. [1] tl;dr women start out with equal pay, but trade pure monetary compensation for flexibility and/or fewer hours when they have kids because society still sucks at gender equality when it comes to enabling parents to equally contribute to certain aspects of parent…

As the father of a 10 week old baby girl, it isn't as simple as just society enabling parents to contribute equally. I am SO into being a dad. I want to do as much caregiving as possible. However, breastfeeding kinda throws a monkey wrench into the "split all the work equally" plan. For newborns, eating is what they do most of the time (when they aren't sleeping). If you breastfeed your child, which all pediatricians…

One of the things that I did to compensate for that was to take on a significantly greater share of "common duties" such as dishwashing, laundry, paying bills, taking out the trash etc. Before our baby, these used to be generally done around 50-50. I took over all of them.

After month 6, once the baby starts drinking more formula milk and eating solids, things start becoming potentially more egalitarian, since either parent can handle those.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#426

Post by clevernickname » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 6:58 AM UTC

shkkmo wrote: post #409

stray wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-29418230

Is that supposed to be a citation? Try as I might I can't seem to find any further details on this study, which seems like it was conducted as part of a TV program rather than as a research paper. For more information about the discussion of research into gender-based neuroscience, here is an actual article: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal....

Here's another citation of an "actual article" for you, fam.

The Paradox of Declining Female Happiness: https://www.nber.org/papers/w14969

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#427

Post by imtringued » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 7:27 AM UTC

shkkmo wrote: post #419

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Strength/size is a physical trait, not a gender role. Hormone release is a physical process, not a gender role. Where do you think gender roles come from? The most common job in the US is truck driver. It's not software developer money but it pays better than you might expect. Truck drivers are overwhelming male and you might not see an obvious reason for that and want to blame "gender roles" or sexism. But truck d…

...wow... Do you really believe the reason why fewer than 6% of truck drivers are female is because women are not physically strong enough for the job? Do you really believe this has nothing to do with the sexism of the industry and the perception of this industry by society?

You know, I don't think "sexism" is a good argument if you spend 95% of your job alone inside a truck and calling a industry "sexist" is just rubbing salt into the wound which actually worsens the perception of the industry without offering a solution.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#428

Post by fiveop » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 7:27 AM UTC

jfaucett wrote: post #246

ahoy wrote: post #15

This is fairly consistent with other studies. The "77%" number is arrived at by comparing the median wage of full-time male & female employees. It doesn't account for differences in industry, job title, experience, etc. It's super broad. That doesn't mean we should ignore it, but it means we need more granularity. Coming out of uni/grad school, male and female salaries are equal in comparable fields. They depart a fe…

"This is in large part because care for family members(children and elderly parents usually) is more often foisted upon women in our society than on men." I disagree. The primary cause is that women can become pregnant - the possibility alone is in most cases enough - in which case they leave the work force for X amount of time. Depending on country, laws, and personal preferences this time period can range from a fe…

Note, that fathers now have similar rights. There are some exceptions right around the birth, because that clearly affects women an men differently. I might also miss some differences. But the current legislation allows both my partner and me to take out equal amounts of time (about 7 month) in the coming year (we can split 14 months, as long as they each takes at least 2 and they can overlap) with 66% compensation replacement from the state.

So the employer cannot rely anymore on a man not taking time off.

(The total amount without is about three years instead of 14 months, but only those 14 months are covered financially).

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#429

Post by tajen » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 7:39 AM UTC

st3v3r wrote: post #248

apta wrote: post #240

> What if it's a natural preference given It is known that women tend to be more emotional than men for instance. As such, they do well in nurturing roles like you described. I'm not saying that men can't do them, it's just that more women feel "at home" doing that kind of work.

Is that a natural thing? Or is it because emotions are considered "unmanly"?

Exact! I'm a male and I'm highly emotional, like many other males. I have had many problems with macho corporations with alpha males who look down at me because I don't smoke and I don't want a big car and "I don't have the shoulders". Too bad for them, I've created my company now, so they've been prejudiced about my skills.

Worse: People tend to support only women about this. I wish we could stop being sexist in treating gender issues, and help "Everyone who's weak" rather than "Everyone who's a woman". Because there are strong women too. My government has 6.000€ donations for women who create a company and 30.000€ interest-free loan with no collateral. We need to help based on the criteria which makes it more difficult for people, like "Help everyone who's taking care of his children", or "Help people who live an ecologist lifestyle which doesn't look macho" rather than "Help women". What's the gap between people who have an alpha character and the people who intuitively position themselves as victims? What's the gap between macho men and strong, dominant women?

It's a generalization to say "women" instead of pointing out the trait that makes it a weakness.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#430

Post by kiproping » Fri, Mar 04, 2016, 7:43 AM UTC

untog wrote: post #32

paganel wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We need to upend the idea that family care is solely the domain of women (normalizing parental leave for fathers with newborns is a good Don't have a kid, but I would think that an infant is better off having his mother close to him in his early months of life compared to having his father, for the simple biological reason that the mother can breast-feed, while a father can't. From what I remember reading kids who…

From what I remember reading kids who are breast-fed tend to do better in life in terms of health or being better from a psylogical point of view. The former (health) is absolutely true, but it's nothing that couldn't also be solved by the mother pumping her breast milk and the father doing the actual feeding by bottle. "bottle vs breast" is about the actual milk being fed, not the delivery method.

Wow, you are trying to hard!