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Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

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Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#311

Post by baddox »

WalterSear wrote: post #264
Vraxx wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point he was trying to make still holds without such absurd multipliers as "doubling", it's just an intuitively easy to grasp multiplier. What he's saying is that increasing your number of hours may get more absolute work done, but proportionally a person accomplishes less as more hours are worked. Thus, the correlation between time in office (hours) and productivity (work accomplished per unit time) is a…

You are implying that childcare and other non-work flex time activity isn't work. This is, in the frame of this discussion, in itself implicitly sexist. Women aren't asking for flex time in order to relax: they want flex time in order to do work that isn't business related, like taking care of their family. So the same number of hours are being worked - the question is whether using these extra hours to do company bu…

> You are implying that childcare and other non-work flex time activity isn't work.

I doubt anyone is implying that. Clearly "productivity" in this context specifically referring to the firm that is employing the individual.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#312

Post by baddox »

LunaSea wrote: post #301
chiaro wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/03/24/stubborn-pay-gap-is... Nope. Male nurses still make more, which, with respect to your post, is a strong data point in favor of the discrimination hypothesis.

A discrimination by women against women then since nursing is overwhelmingly women.

I don't know if that's true, but even if it is, how does that make the discrimination any less of a problem?

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#313

Post by facepalm »

ahoy wrote: post #15

This is fairly consistent with other studies. The "77%" number is arrived at by comparing the median wage of full-time male & female employees. It doesn't account for differences in industry, job title, experience, etc. It's super broad. That doesn't mean we should ignore it, but it means we need more granularity. Coming out of uni/grad school, male and female salaries are equal in comparable fields. They depart a fe…

"Women tend to find themselves funneled into specific career paths"

Why the passive - couldn't they actively be choosing specific career paths?

"This is in large part because care for family members(children and elderly parents usually) is more often foisted upon women in our society than on men."

Again, why the "foisted"? Especially for children it doesn't make sense: if it is such an unpleasant task, why not simply choose not to have children? Care for parents might end up in women's hands because they already made the choices for more flexible time (and less income) earlier on.

Instead of "foisted", it seems possible that women simply more often get the option to choose (because they were the ones who were pregnant), and men don't.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#314

Post by facepalm »

losteric wrote: post #188
ahoy wrote: post #15

This is fairly consistent with other studies. The "77%" number is arrived at by comparing the median wage of full-time male & female employees. It doesn't account for differences in industry, job title, experience, etc. It's super broad. That doesn't mean we should ignore it, but it means we need more granularity. Coming out of uni/grad school, male and female salaries are equal in comparable fields. They depart a fe…

I fully agree with everything here, especially getting rid of stereotypes around nurturing roles. My question is, what happens if many women and men aren't funneled towards those roles? What if it's a natural preference given our evolutionary history? I'm not saying that's the case, and my parents had no problems reversing nurturing roles over 20 years ago... but given our hyper-"PC" society, I am curious how far soc…

My preference as a father would be to spend as much care-free time with my kids as possible (care-free as in not having to worry about earning money). But I fully accept that my wife has the greater claim to having that time. I was present when my kids were born.

Why does everybody swallow the feminist narrative that it is a horrible chore to spend time with children? Note that feminism depends on that evaluation, otherwise a lot of their complaints evaporate.

As I said in another comment, if you don't like spending time with children, you could simply opt not to have one. How do feminists explain that people have kids who they then supposedly hate to take care of? (Of course, it has to be socialization, it never occurs to women that they have a choice because the patriarchy has brainwashed them...Sure thing)

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#315

Post by Kluny »

logfromblammo wrote: post #280
st3v3r wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that a natural thing? Or is it because emotions are considered "unmanly"?

You are in the woods. Before you are two black bear cubs. Due to the circumstances of the hypothetical, you have only two choices for where to stand. Choice A is between the cubs and their mother, who is feasting on armyworms. Choice B is between the cubs and their father, who is raiding a beehive. Which do you pick? Choice B, right? It is illogical to walk away from easy food and then choose to attack the strong foo…

I don't think your analogy holds any water, and I also find it disrespectful of the typical father's love for his children.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#316

Post by 13thLetter »

DanBC wrote: post #302
13thLetter wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just tech sites, though, which is what I'm getting at. Major politicians and newspapers constantly go on at great lengths about alleged gender problems in tech. Do they talk nearly as much about, say, the imbalance towards women in education? I'm going to assert that they do not.

[gender imbalance education] and the name of various newspapers returns many many hits. EG https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=gender+imbalance+education... Although using WSJ proves you right: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=gender+imbalance+education...

I don't think this search is focused enough to be useful (in either direction.) For example, the first page of NYT results includes stories about a lack of male teachers, but also about gender imbalances against women in labs, varying educational outcomes between boys and girls, and China's one-child policy.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#317

Post by facepalm »

jahewson wrote: post #276
apta wrote: post #240

> What if it's a natural preference given It is known that women tend to be more emotional than men for instance. As such, they do well in nurturing roles like you described. I'm not saying that men can't do them, it's just that more women feel "at home" doing that kind of work.

> It is known No, it really isn't. It's just your biased stereotype.

Unless you ask who is a better boss. Then the feminists will happily tell you that women are the better bosses because they have more empathy and so on...

(For what it's worth, I don't subscribe to the 'women should take care of children because they are more emotional' theory, but I find it funny how people pick their stereotypes on a whim).

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#318

Post by rosser »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #239
rosser wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because people should totally be making major life decisions on the basis of what employers will "tolerate". FFS. We've already ceded enough control over our lives to these companies whose only agenda is to suck people dry, and then find new ways to wring even more out of them. Businesses exist to serve people's needs and interests. People do not exist to serve businesses.

There are many businesses out there. Make your employment decisions based on your values. I don't have children, and won't be having any. You seem to be saying that I have to subsidize your childcare leave.

That is not remotely what I'm saying, and I gave absolutely no reason to suggest it.

This is the worst case of someone trying to put words in my mouth on HN since the last time I tried explaining something from a feminist perspective...

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#319

Post by facepalm »

RodericDay wrote: post #42
ahoy wrote: post #15

This is fairly consistent with other studies. The "77%" number is arrived at by comparing the median wage of full-time male & female employees. It doesn't account for differences in industry, job title, experience, etc. It's super broad. That doesn't mean we should ignore it, but it means we need more granularity. Coming out of uni/grad school, male and female salaries are equal in comparable fields. They depart a fe…

I like the idea of "mandatory paternity leave", to make up for the biological asymmetry. Even if you have a stereotypical breadwinner/housewife relationship, you are legally mandated to take time off, even if you don't want to. That way you avoid the "you're allowed to take paternal leave, but real go-getters don't!" game altogether. edit: The way I see it, the responses just prove my point. "This would just make peo…

That would only work if you would pay parents for the money they lose while they are not allowed to work. Otherwise you would mainly make families poorer.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#320

Post by jklinger410 »

johngalt wrote: post #298
frandroid wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that we're forcing women to specialize in child-rearing, which is not economically valued or rewarded, and men to specialize in earning income, which wields huge social and economic power. And the reason this happens is that men withhold their parenting labour, and women are forced to pick up the slack. It's just like the feminist saying... "If men got pregnant, abortion would be available free of char…

> we're forcing women to specialize in child-rearing I see no evidence of any force being applied. Women are free to chose their own relationship types same as men. Exceptionally few choose to be breadwinner supporting a stay at home father. Vastly more choose to be stay at home mom married to an income earning dad.

Being a victim of society is en vogue.
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